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Post by johngg on Aug 17, 2021 14:51:15 GMT
Yes I saw that. Personally I can see how its argued either way. But my common sense and the fact BotWD is daft means I'm definitely siding with the 'Of course you get a ward save!' See you in September! Let's just hope it never comes up anyway! Worry for nothing 😉 Looking forward to rolling some dice, finally! There's no real argument, Of all the Nuke spells available, half allow Wards, half ("half", very very rough ) don't! so,... <shrugs>
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Post by johngg on Aug 17, 2021 14:56:17 GMT
Absolutly Back to basic... " Some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as casualties (after failing a Ld or T test, for example). Where this is the case, not only are no saves of any kind allowed (unless specified otherwise).... ANDHowever, ABH specifically allows ward saves, although no wounds as such have been suffered. That's the crux of it there for me. I think our man needs to be baby stepped through it
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Post by DiscoQing on Aug 17, 2021 15:59:25 GMT
Cheers both - it can get overwhelming when the loud minority rattle their pans, it feels a bit like putting out lots of little fires lol. I think I'll copy/paste FvonSigmaringen's response. However it's all quiet on the western front atm.
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Post by DiscoQing on Aug 17, 2021 16:02:45 GMT
FvonSigmaringenAs a supplementary question... What does it mean to be "slain" in the context of warhammer? It's referenced pretty much everywhere, overkill, ridden monster reactions, spells etc.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 17, 2021 16:48:18 GMT
Here is one we prepared earlier: Basically, "killed (or slain) outright" applies to effects that kill a model automatically without inflicting wounds per se and regardless of the number of wounds on the model's profile. This may be with or without saves. BRB p. 52: "Attacks that kill a model outright (made with a Killing Blow, say - see page 72) count as having scored all the slain model's remaining wounds." BRB p. 72 (Killing Blow): "If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent - regardless of the number of wounds on the victim's profile. Armour saves and regeneration saves cannot be taken against a Killing Blow. A ward save can be attempted — if passed, the ward save prevents all damage from the Killing Blow." BRB p. 499 (Purple Sun of Xereus): "Any model touched by the template must pass an Initiative test or be slain outright with no saves of any kind allowed." Wood Elves AB p. 61 (Arnzipal’s Black Horror): "Any model touched by, or passed over by the template must pass a Strength test or be slain outright with no armour saves allowed (a model may take a single ward save, if it has one - the model remains in play if the save succeeds)." Etc. As a final note: apart from the BotW, there are various other items (or spells, special rules etc.) that bestow more limited ward saves. All of these ward saves are just more limited subsections of the generic ward save: the latter can normally be taken against wounds caused by any kind of attack, the former only against wounds caused by specific kinds of attacks - other than that, they work exactly same the same way. For instance, just from the BRB: Dragonhelm, Dragonbane Gem: wounds caused by Flaming Attacks Pigeon Plucker Pendant: close combat wounds by models that have the Fly special rule Ironcurse Icon: wounds caused by war machine weapons Obviously, since none of these attacks apply to ABH, these ward saves do not work here.
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Post by johngg on Aug 18, 2021 19:44:25 GMT
The Dark Elf ‘Cloak of Twilight’ is the example your looking for
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Post by strutsagget on Aug 19, 2021 6:15:44 GMT
You will have a problem with that one
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 19, 2021 7:54:59 GMT
strutsagget: Why? It is not exactly a problem from the twilight zone. Same principle: the Cloak provides a ward save "against wounds caused by shooting attacks and spells." ABH is a spell that allows ward saves. Hence, the Cloak works. Indeed, if I were facetious, I could even read the description as "against [wounds caused by shooting attacks] and spells....
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Post by strutsagget on Aug 19, 2021 14:14:55 GMT
strutsagget: Why? It is not exactly a problem from the twilight zone. Same principle: the Cloak provides a ward save "against wounds caused by shooting attacks and spells." ABH is a spell that allows ward saves. Hence, the Cloak works. Indeed, if I were facetious, I could even read the description as "against [wounds caused by shooting attacks] and spells.... Not the case or rule, the person attending the tourney not reading the spell texts Can just imagine him running lore of death and casting spirit leach with his dorfs :/
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 19, 2021 14:39:13 GMT
Oh, right. He had already slipped my mind. Probably a Freudian slip of sorts...
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Post by anechrome on Aug 19, 2021 18:32:48 GMT
While I totally agree that there should be a wardsave against ABH, I can absolutely see how that player is reading it;
"BotWD grants wardsaves against wounds (and only wounds) caused by spells. ABH allows you to take wardsaves if you have them. ABH causes no wounds so the banner has no effect, but if you have other wardsaves on your unit feel free to take them."
I don't think there is anything really wrong with the logic there, he may just be too litteral?
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Post by DiscoQing on Aug 19, 2021 19:54:26 GMT
Yeah, I agree he's reading it too literally. Wards are against wounds too...
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 19, 2021 20:00:17 GMT
anechrome: Already answered here Back to basics: what is a ward save? A ward save is a saving throw that can cancel wounds suffered. BRB p. 43: " Each wound suffered may be cancelled if the controlling player makes a saving throw. There are two types of saving throw: armour saves and ward saves." " Models that are wounded still have a chance to avoid a grisly death by 'saving' the wound. Hand your opponent all the dice that scored successful wounds — he then rolls these in an attempt to 'save' his models. If he rolls equal to or greater than the model's save, the wound has been deflected by its armour or some other form of protection." From this follows logically BRB p. 44 (as quoted above): " Some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as casualties (after failing a Ld or T test, for example). Where this is the case, not only are no saves of any kind allowed (unless specified otherwise), but the number of wounds on the victim's profile is completely irrelevant — just remove the model from play, and hope for better luck next time!" The statement in the spell description of Purple Sun that "no saves of any kind" are allowed is, in fact, superfluous. Even if it was not present, then still no saves could be taken. However, ABH specifically allows ward saves, although no wounds as such have been suffered. Now, the ONLY difference between the BoTW ward save and a "generic" ward save is that it cannot cancel any wound, just wounds by magical attacks. If ABH would not be a magical attack, BotW would not work. But since it is, it does.
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Post by anechrome on Aug 19, 2021 20:09:48 GMT
Well, what I think he's saying is not that the wardsaves wouldn't work, but that there needs to be wounds for the banner to give the wardsave in the first place. As W is irrellevant when it comes to "slain outright-stuff", he reads it as no wounds are caused where as we perhaps read it as all wounds are caused.
Edit: and that the spell allows wardsaves to be taken is an exeption to the normal rule. Like, these are not wounds, but you can take wardsaves anyway.
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Post by DiscoQing on Aug 19, 2021 20:28:11 GMT
There has to be wounds for any ward save to work. Unless specified otherwise,😊
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