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Post by bierbaron on Sept 30, 2021 19:20:17 GMT
At this point I have decided to post my reports in a condensed thread instead of seperate threads. For our third game, which will wrap up my first experiences with VC for a short time, my undead met again the vile creatures of the warp. My 1500pts list was: Strigoi Ghoul King with Red Fury, Dragonbane Gem, Ogre Blade, The Other Trickster's Shard [370pts] Necromancer lvl 2 with Book of Arkhan [125pts] Vampire lvl 1 with Heavy Armour, Lore of Shadow, Enchanted Shield [114pts] 28 Crypt Ghouls with Ghast [290pts] 2 X 5 Dire Wolves [40pts] 29 Zombies with Standard and Musician [97pts] 6 Crypt Horrors [228pts] Black Coach [195pts] My now well known opponent played with three infantry blocks in core, 14 Plaguebearers, 14 Horrors, 15 Bloodletters, 4 Nurglings bases, one Beast of Nurgle, 5 Flesh Hounds in Ambush and a Skull Cannon. His heroes were a Nurgle Herald with the poison upgrade, and a Tzeentch herald, just as a caster, I think. I got 2X Invo, Raise Dead on the Necro and Miasma on the Vampire. He got the Nurgle variant of Miasma on his Hero, and Blue Fire, Pink Fire and Firestorm on his Tzeentch hero and unit. I won first turn, which did not do anything good for me We played with random terrain, and the tower on the left was actually a magical library, granting access to all spells of the chosen lore of a wizard within 3" of the tower. The wall structure on the right allowed to channel 4 dice instead of only one, with bad consequences if you roll 3+ sixes. Never happened, even though we both used this rule quite often. He placed the Nurglings again in the center of the field, 12" away from my Ghouls and my Crypt Horrors (CH). The CH tried to charge, but failed. My magic did not do much, the rest of the army moved up. The Coach grew scythes on its wheels. He charged the Beast into the flank of the wolves and the Nurglings into the CH. I now realize during my writing that the Flesh Hounds showed up one turn early, as they came on the field in turn one. The DoC magic phase improved the daemonic ward to 4+ and various tzeentchian fires killed a few Ghouls, but also gave them Regen 6+. This is the field after the DoC movement Turn 1The Skullcannon misfired, but did not take any damage from it. The Beast of Nurgle wiped out the dogs and braced itself for the charge of the BC, and the Nurglings tied up the CH nicely, they did not move for the rest of the game. In my turn 2, the Black Coach charged the Beast of N, and the Zombies tried to protect the flank of the CH, moving next to the library tower. The Ghouls tried to get to the Tzeentch Daemons ASAP in the center, the Wolves on the right sacrificed themselves to the Bloodletters to buy some time for the Ghouls. My magic again did not do too much, healed some Ghouls and the CH back to full. I may have gotten a Vanhels off on the CH, but I am not sure anymore. The BC killed the Beast of Nurgle with some luck and reformed, opening its flank to the Skullcannon, but also threatening the flank of the Plaguebearers. I trusted the mighty T6 and 4+ ward of the coach. A foolish thought, now that I reflect on it, but at that time, I thought it might be good idea. The Skullcannon could always fail its charge, or try to shoot at the coach. The CH really did some work on the Nurglings, but could not wipe them out, they passed instability on a 3. Beginning of DoC Turn 2Now, all DoC units except the Horrors charge: The Skullcannon goes after the Black Coach, the Plaguebearers charge the Zombies near the tower, the Flesh Hounds charge the rear of the Crypt Horrors, and finally, the Bloodletters accept the sacrifice of the Dire Wolves. Magic is an uneventful 6 or so, his Tzeentch wizard and unit continue to blast the Ghouls, but they only manage to do marginal damage, and give them 5+ Regen in turn. Close combat is much more successful for the DoC, the Dire Wolves and the Black Coach go down without much of a fight, the CH fight hard, but still lose by 3 or so and combat reform to face the Flesh Hounds to maximise attacks on them. The rear charge of the Flesh Hounds in turn 2 certainly did its part in this combat, but the Nurglings are always extra tough to remove, it almost feels unreal. Also, questionable decisions on my part continue. The Plaguebearers manage to inflict 11(!) unsaved wounds with 13 attacks on the Zombies, while not even getting hit in return, which is not so surprising. So they crumble badly, only 10ish Zombies stay in the fight. It looks really dangerous for the Zombies and as a consequence of this, also the Crypt Horrors are in danger now. VC turn 3, my Ghouls and their King finally join the fray and charge the Tzeentch Horrors. Magic manages to raise 10 or so Zombies, heal the CH a bit and also raise the Ghouls to almost full again. The shadow Vampire gets Miasma off on the Bloodletters, reducing their WS. In CC, the Zombies with the Necro get wiped out easily after another big swing from the Plaguebearers, and the Crypt Horrors only manage to kill the Nurglings and draw CR, opening themselves for a rear charge from the Plaguebearers in the process. The only good thing is my King and his Ghouls: they hack the Horrors apart in a manner fitting their temperament, but the Horrors hold the line. In DoC turn 3, the Plaguebearers charge the CH, and the Bloodletters easily reach the flank of the Ghouls. Magic is quite successful for the Daemons, they manage to decrease the T of the Crypt Horrors by 2 and give poison attacks to the Flesh Hounds thanks to the library in the tower. The CH get wiped out, and the Flesh Hounds and the Plaguebearers reform and prepare for one last big charge together with the Skullcannon on the Ghouls. Fortunately for me, the miasmaed Bloodletters fluff their attacks and kill only one Ghoul, while they and especially the Ghoul King ravage the Horrors and the Bloodletters like they owe them money. Both DoC units hold, though. VC turn 4, the Blender King and his entourage banish both the Horrors and the Bloodletters and even get to fill up their ranks again with an Invocation. I decide to accept the Flesh Hounds in the flank of the Ghouls, and the Cannon + the Plaguebearers in the front with the victory reform, it was impossible to avoid a flank charge. The last stand, or, the trap has sprung ;-)This last big combat led to the demise of all three remaining DoC units in only two rounds. The Ghoul King killed three Flesh hounds in the initial round of combat, the Skullcannon did a few wounds, the Plaguebearers also did their thing, but killed only five or so Ghouls in total, so I could keep my rank bonus, which together with the massive CR from the King and the occasional wound from the Ghouls let me win combat. In the next round, my Vampires were successful in the magic phase, raising Ghouls again, and putting Miasma on the Plaguebearers. The Ghoul King again racked up a massive number of wounds (8, I think, Eternal Hatred is amazing, especially against Nurgle!), which in the end poofed the Plaguebearers and the Skullcannon. This was a nerve-wracking and very swingy game. I believe my opponent had the better tactics, getting rear and flank charges left and right, even though the incorrect and premature ambush of the Flesh Hounds certainly helped here. My positioning in the center was ok, the Dire Wolves did what they were supposed to and bought me valuable time, but the Black Coach and how I played it was definitely poor. I want to shift some of the blame on the model: a chariot that is unable to flee is suboptimal. Then, its offensive potential is quite limited for the cost. Sure, the attack attributes are nice, when you get them, but I have to say I am disappointed by the Black Coach. And yeah, offering the flank to a Skullcannon was dumb. The rest of the army performed quite well and as expected, but I hoped in vain that 30 Zombies + Invocations would hold longer than they did. The rolls for the Plaguebearers were just too good, and the 5+ poison is really handy against troops without armour. The Crypt Horrors were good, but got too much attention from the get-go. Not the fault of the unit, though, they occupied at least 2x their own points value when they went down. But my saviour, the Strigoi Ghoul King was just jaw-droppingly amazing. He almost single handedly wiped out 90% of the whole daemon army with his consistent CR of 6+, he and his unit were in contact with every enemy unit (sans the Nurglings) and simply wiped the floor with them. His damage output is almost unbelievable, especially at the size of the game, and he has still budget for more items and Vampiric Powers for bigger games. Ghouls are expensive, but they are the one VC core unit that can actually fight, T4 and 2 attacks go a long way even against flank charges. For DoC, I get the impression that only Nurgle units are generally really usable without questions asked. Sure, calling the Skullcannon undercosted is the understatement of the week, and the Flesh Hounds are some good ambushers that can decently fight and also take a beating, and they can also act nicely as wizard assassins when charging bunkers, but with Nurgle units, it seems you just can't go wrong. The -1 to hit and the general toughness of the units annoy me to no end. Nurgle magic is way more effective than Tzeentch magic, the latter helped me more than it did harm. Bloodletters are not as scary as Plaguebearers. Maybe other units/armies will be more afraid of their Killing Blow, so the Khorne boys may have some things going for them. Slaanesh units were not played by my opponent at all after the first game, and Horrors seem to be plain bad. A lot of complicated rules that most likely do nothing. Next, I will play Empire or WoC to shift gears a bit.
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Post by bierbaron on Oct 18, 2021 20:44:55 GMT
In the next game, I faced a new opponent from our group. He has tournament experience in WFB and T9A, and owns a number of different armies: Skaven, Wood Elves, WoC and Bretonnians. We decided to go for 1500 points again, and did not tell each other which army we would choose. He decided to go with Skaven, I went with Empire. My Army consisted of:
Arch Lector, Armour of Meteoric Iron, Warhorse [168pts] Battle Wizard, Lore of Life, Wizard Level 2, Warhorse [112pts], I rolled "Regrowth" and "The Dwellers below". Maybe should have swapped Regrowth with Earth Blood. Captain, Battle Standard Bearer, Full Plate Armour, Lance, Shield, White Cloak of Ulric, Warhorse w Barding [166pts]
5x Knightly Orders, Great Weapon [110pts] 10x Knightly Orders Inner Circle, Lance and Shield, CSM [280pts]
5x Outriders C,M [125pts] 9x Reiksguard Knights w CSM, Standard of Discipline [288pts], all characters joined this unit
1x Steam Tank [250pts]
The Skaven brought:
Grey Seer lvl 4 with unknown or unused equipment, possibly ToP?, he rolled Skitterleap, Scorch, Bless with Filth and Plague Chieftain, BSB, Foul Pendant (5+Ward), Heavy Armour and halberd Warlock Engineer with Warp-Energy Condenser Warlock Engineer with Doomrocket 35 Skavenslaves 30 Clanrats, CSM + Warpfire Thrower, the engineers went there 20+ Stromrats, CSM, Banner of eternal flame, Ratling Gun, the GS and Chief went there 6 Giant Rats with Packmaster 6 Giant Rats with Packmaster
HPA with Warpstone Spikes War Lightning Cannon
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Post by bierbaron on Oct 19, 2021 18:56:31 GMT
Setup looked like this Details of the Skaven side
I had concentrated my force on my right flank, only having the lone 5 knightly orders on the left, facing 6 giant rats and the HPA. My Outriders did not vanguard. My opponent won first turn, and moved only the slaves a little bit up on his left flank, on his right flank, the Giant rats and the HPA moved in the general direction of the knights. The magic phase was scary enough, a Warp Lightning killed three Outriders, the Plague was dispelled, but the Skitterleap propelled the Warlock with the doom rocket behind my lines. The shooting phase continued to be scary, the WLC shaving 6 wounds off of the STank, and the doom rocket killed several of my Reiksguard. I moved up the Tank and the Inner circle knights, the Outriders and the Reiksguard stayed behind, as the terrain was too narrow, and I did not want to risk to lose models to dangerous terrain unnecessarily. This is the first time I rolled a "7" on the Tank mishap table, and lost two wounds. The knights on the left stayed well out of the expected charge range of the HPA. My magic phase saved the game for me, I got 6 dice including channels and targeted the dwellers on the Stormvermin with GS and the Chieftain. I rolled IF, and the dwellers killed half the unit, including the GS! Sigmar was surely with me, as the miscast result was only a 9, wounding my wizard, the Arch Lector's armor protected him from the S6 hit. The lore attribute mended the Steam Tank a bit. This was surely a critical point during the game, the Skaven lost their general and their main contributor to magic to a nuke spell. I got lucky this time. Shooting was also not bad, as the steam cannon could kill the ratling gun. Slaves to redirectMy opponent still did not move much, but positioned his Skavenslaves to hold up my advancing forces. His HPA decided to ignore the knights on my left flank and tried to get to the action on the other side, breaking through the woods. The Skaven magic phase was now much more harmless, a warp lightning killed an inner circle knight, and that was it. His Warpfire Thrower attack killed three more, panic was passed easily. No combats. In my turn, I charged the IC knights into the Slaves, adding the ST to the attack. The now common Steam Tank mishap again resulted in a "7", adding 2 more steam points, but also costing 2 additional wounds. We played that these wounds cannot be saved by armour. Things began to look dire for the steel behemoth. The Outriders swept the field, and the Reiksguard positioned themselves to charge next turn. The knights of the white wolf on the left now marched full speed towards the WLC, ignoring the HPA in the woods. Magic was not bad, I could regrow a Reiksguard knight and heal the Steam Tank a bit with the attribute. Shooting did not exist, but in cc, the knights and the Tank killed literally dozens of slaves and broke them, thanks to the absence of the Grey Seer. The IC knights overran into the Warpfire Thrower. Now the Skaven charged the Stormrats into the flank of the IC knights,
and the HPA decided to eat some knights. Skaven Magic was luckily mostly a non-factor from now on, and the WLC failed to wound the Steam Tank any further. The HPA killed three knights, routing them and also pursuing and catching them. But that move took it out of the rest of the game, it never reached combat again. The nice 1+ armour saved the IC knights from the halberds of the Stormrats, they killed the warpfire team and passed their break test and even reformed to face the Stormrats in the front. From there, it was a dice orgy, which saw the IC knights dwindling against the Skaven BSB and the Stormrats, even though they fought to the last man. In my fifth turn, I was able to charge or better overrun with the Reiksguard into the Clanrats after killing the Giant Rats. I also charged the WLC with the remaining two Outriders. Of course, the Stormrats countercharged the Reiksguard, but again, the 1+ save as well as the White Cloak saved lots of wounds on the knights, and in he last round of the game, both Skaven units broke after my Captain killed the Chieftain BSB. The Clanrats ran from the field, and the Stormrats got caught by the Reiksguard. The Steam Tank chilled the last two rounds, sitting on its last wound and not doing anything. I think, it killed the Warlock Engineer with the doom rocket as its last satisfying action. This game was definitely mostly won in the first Empire magic phase where I got off the Dwellers on the Stormrat unit. Otherwise, I think my losses to Skaven magic would most likely have been to great to get meaningful power in the later close combats, but who knows. Great game, great opponent, and it was much fun again.
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Post by bierbaron on Oct 21, 2021 16:11:30 GMT
Some observations after the game: My opponent stated that with all his tournament experience in WFB and T9A, he had never seen an empire army like this one, with 1+ armour saves all over the place. He expected big blocks of infantry supported by lots of artillery, but of course dropped the idea of the dreaded 13th spell immediately at the sight of the army. I like the fact that we did not tailor our lists towards a known or even expected army, which allowed for these small types of non-optimal setups, like his Stormrats having the Banner of eternal flame. Against other armies, maybe my WoC sporting a unit of Trolls, this banner might have been a gamechanger, in this game, it was 10 points wasted. There is a suspicious feeling creeping up in the back of my mind about the level of influence magic can have on the game, though. As far as my imagination goes, and I already wrote that in the report, I think I can pinpoint when exactly the balance swung in my favour during the game. If that not had happenend, the game might have ended much closer and very likely with a win for the Skaven. Just imagine the Slaves not breaking immediately like they did, very likely with the (broken) Ld of the Grey Seer and the BSB reroll. Why does the GS have the same Ld as the Warlord, making the latter superfluous? The first shooting phase was a bit disheartening, but I also feel lucky that the Steam Tank obviously distracted my opponent enough to not shoot at the Reiksguard with the WLC. Could have been even more destructive there. The concept of TLoS has to sink in, I did not realize at first that the terrain favoured the Skaven that much. During the game I realized that there were only narrow corridors for my army to maneuver through on the field, and the woods did nothing to provide cover. The sacrifice of the White Wolves was well worth it, holding up the Hell Pit abomination just with the threat of them getting around the flank, or charging the WLC. The HPA with its huge random charge radius PLUS its erratic, but devastating close combat capabilities is a scary prospect.
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Post by Naitsabes on Oct 21, 2021 20:40:05 GMT
I wouldn't know about T9A but in 8th, some variation of the 'Knights of the holy cannon ball' was a fairly popular build back in the days. Fighty state troops take a lot more effort to make work.
Magic is very swingy indeed, just the way the ruleset is. It makes for memorable games (admittedly not always good memories).
I really like your table. Looks great! Keep it coming.
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Post by bierbaron on Oct 21, 2021 21:39:19 GMT
Thank you very much, I will certainly give your comment about the table to the designer who created it. He has made a number of these tiles which can be easily replaced, and also has created a river, a lava stream and other interesting features which will surely see play sooner or later.
About magic, we will see, in the first games I played, it was not overly dominant, but it seems you shouldn't go without it in 8th if you can help it. As you said, the result can be very memorable.
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Post by knoffles on Oct 22, 2021 17:45:42 GMT
I really liked your list as something a bit different than the standard Empire armies you see. I also echo that the tables look really good. Magic is destructive but can also be risky. I’ve probably killed more Bestigor from miscasts than any of my opponents have managed! I do agree that often a level 4 is more essential than a fighting lord, or perhaps can make more of a difference. I still often favour fighting lords if only for the increased leadership they can give.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 22, 2021 21:17:33 GMT
Regarding your list: the AoMI on the Arch Lector is not very cost-efficient. You can get the same protection (1+/6++ saves) with HA, Enchanted Shield, barding and Talisman of Protection, for 20 points less. If you give him the Talisman of Preservation instead of Protection, you would get 1+/4++ saves for just 10 points more.
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Post by bierbaron on Oct 23, 2021 9:12:56 GMT
Thank you for this hint! My oversight is a result of point shaving: In a previous iteration of the roster, I slapped the AoMI on the Arch Lector and a Great weapon and it looked good enough to me. Then, the roster was over 1500 points, and I removed the Great weapon as an easy fix because the two WS4 attacks of the AL will not do much anyway. Thanks for pointing out that I could have saved even more points.
Regarding magic: Yeah, most armies have to make a choice between an extra pip of leadership and a lvl 4, and both have their merits. Miscasts can be very harsh, too. I tried to find a loophole for this choice with the Arch Lector, but his prayers were easily dispelled most of the time because he does not get any bonus on his castings. His Hatred was helpful. I'm considering to try a Grand Master or a Lvl 4 next time.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 23, 2021 12:24:50 GMT
Although fairly priced compared with a Warrior Priest, the full potential of an Arch Lector is only realised with the War Altar. In smaller games, a Warrior Priest is the more cost-efficient choice, in particular if you already use the Standard of Discipline, and have a BSB Captain. As you say, miscasts can be very harsh - and that is regardless of Wizard level. I would avoid putting my casting Wizard (as opposed to a scroll caddy) in a unit where a miscast can do irreparable damage.
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Post by bierbaron on Oct 30, 2021 22:43:12 GMT
Next game has happened, 1500 points again, we seem to have settled on this size for the moment. I am quite fine with this game size as it allows to include almost every option and regular lord level characters, but Lvl4 magic or a tooled up combat Lord cost quite a chunk. Double rares which tend to make the game onesided and unfun are very rare at this game size. Additionally, the length of the games is very manageable this way, as we always have several situations in each game where we have to consult the rules or have to doublecheck if both players understand the rules the same way. I decided to unleash my WoC this time, while my regular opponent chose DoC again. As usual, we did not inform each other beforehand which army we will use. My army list went through several iterations again, in the end I decided that I want to play more magic heavy this time, and leave the Daemon Prince and other tempting options at home. Still, I think my list was not soft. Chaos Sorcerer Lord, Lore of Shadow, Mark of Slaanesh, Wizard Level 4, Chaos Familiar, Scaled Skin, Skull of Katam, Charmed Shield, Opal Amulet [355pts] I rolled a double and got all the good stuff: Miasma, Enfeebling Foe, Withering, Pit of Shades and Mindrazor. Chaos Chariot, Mark of Slaanesh [115pts] Chaos Chariot, Mark of Slaanesh [115pts] 5 X Chaos Warhounds [30pts] 5 X Chaos Warhounds [30pts] 19 X Chaos Warriors, CSM, MoS, Standard of Discipline [349pts] Chimera with Regenerating Flesh [245pts] 3 X Skullcrushers of Khorne with S,M and Ensorcelled weapons[254pts] Before the game, I had mixed feelings about the big and expensive block of Chaos Warriors. I tried many times to make them work in 6th edition, and in the end, I just gave up, because they were so extremely disadvantaged despite their high stats then. There will be a lesson for me in the upcoming game. The Daemons army consisted of: Daemon Prince of Nurgle with Chaos Armour, Wings, Magic level 2, Greater Gift (Obsidian Blade?) He rolled Curse of the Leper and Rancid Visitations The now regular Nurgle Herald with 5+ poison and Biting Blade 19 Plaguebearers with CSM and Banner of Swiftness 4 Nurgling Bases 3 Nurgle Beasts 3 Screamers of Tzeentch 1 Skullcannon So he made the same observations about DoC units as I did, or he read my reports, but he loaded up on exactly the DoC units that I are likely to give me the most trouble: basically everything Nurgle and Skullcannon. This is the deployment My left flankMy right flank: DoC won first turn and moved up, Tzeentch decided to roast some Plaguebearers (5 on the DoC magic table), otherwise, my lvl4 could dispel all attempted spells, the Skullcannon deleted the chimera. Nothing else happened, but it was enough. The warriors charged the Nurglings, and in the center, I tried to build some sort of overrun trap with my Dogs, placed the Skullcrushers behind and formed a kill zone with my chariots on the left and right. The charging distance of the DP was totally underestimated by me... The magic phase was very successful with a Miasma followed by a Pit of Shades on the Beasts of Nurgle, which killed two of them. My Chaos Warriors made good progress in killing the Nurglings, but went on to be stuck with them for a total of four combat rounds... The remaining Beast of Nurgle declared a Charge on the dogs. I was not consistent with my plan in the center and opted to flee, the Beast redirected into the Skullcrushers. I do not know why, but the DP did not take the chance of a direct charge directly into the Skullcrushers. He moved towards the center behind the ruins and aimed at the chariot on the right. The magic phase saw a Rancid visitation on the right chariot which did nothing, I failed to dispel the Nurgle Miasma on the Beast, which lowered the WS and I of the Skullcruhers by 2. The Skullcannon took only one Wound from the left chariot. In CC, the Beast of Nurgle rolled 5 attacks, but did only one wound, my SC did also only one unsaved wound and barely won due to the musician. The instability test cost the Beast another 2 wounds, but for this round, it stayed around. No charges were declared, I rallied the Dogs and repositioned my chariots to potentially threaten multiple targets. My magic saw an IF Miasma on the DP, lowering M, WS and I by 2, the miscast of 5 killed three Chaos Warriors, the Charmed Shield protected my Wizard. In CC, the Nurglings and the Beast of Nurgle got killed. Position of the relevant units on the left flank. He charged the Plaguebearers into my Skullcrushers, but failed his charge with his DP into the right chariot. The Screamers killed four Dogs with a slashing attack, panicking them. In his magic phase, the DP again cast a Rancid Visitation on the right Chariot, shaving off one Wound. The Plaguebearers got their Miasma, which evened the chances in combat a bit, and I managed to dispel the Curse of the Leper which also targeted the Plaguebearers. The Skullcannon destroyed the left chariot. In Close Combat, the Nurglings died, and the Plaguebearers lost combat, but held without additional losses. The right Chariot charged at the Nurgle DP, the Warriors moved to threaten the flank of the Plaguebearers, and the remaining Dogs moved towards the Skullcannon. In my magic phase, I was able to enfeeble the DP and he remained with only S3. The withering targeting the Daemon Prince was dispelled, but I could Miasma the Plaguebearers. Now, the Skullcrushers could really kill good numbers of Plaguebearers, but there was also a short shocking moment when they rolled 8 wounds with their attacks, all poison hits with 5s and 6s. Fortunately, I did not roll a 1 on the Crushers saves. The charging chariot inflicted 3 unsaved wounds on the Daemon Prince via impact hits and also the crew, suffered none in return and overran the remains of the DP after it failed its instability test. I will shorten it from here, the Plaguebearers fought a valiant, but ultimately doomed fight after the Slaanesh Warriors joined the battle in the flank. After that, even the Skullcannon fell to a charge from the Skullcrushers in the final round; it had failed a charge in its last round against the chariot that killed the DP. Only the Screamers remained of the Daemon host in the end. The lore of Shadow is very, very good. It is especially good on a lvl 4, but the signature spell is surely even better in multiples. Each successful spell can swing a combat. Elite Infantry really IS a lot better than before, even if it is expensive and can't be raised. Now, I really have the feeling to get something significant in return to the point investment. The Chimera sadly died without doing anything, so I can't comment on the rules. Theoretically, it is extremely potent and should threaten warmachines or unit flanks from turn two an. I still can't get over the fact that something like the Skullcannon even exists, no to mention that it should be at least 50% more expensive, since it seems to be all but immune to regular warmachine hunters. Maybe Marauder Horsemen with Flails and MoS can at least prevent it from shooting due to feigned flight. The units and the Mark of Slaanesh worked all very well, the chariots are really tough and dangerous on the charge, the opposing army simply can't ignore them. And the Skullcrushers... I don't know, but they seem to be very stacked, too. Six attacks per model with constant S5 + Stomp (which I completely forgot during the wohle game). Sure, they have their price, but they demand a specific tool to counter, and that tool is scarce most of the time. Maybe not so much for Skaven, but DoC lack really high S attacks outside of Greater Daemons. Anyways, thats it for today.
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Post by knoffles on Nov 1, 2021 8:10:46 GMT
1500pts is quite good fun. Several players at the club have started to play that size, not least as you can almost guarantee to finish a game by close of play! I think your observations are spot on. Shadow is one of the top choices from the BRB. The Skull Cannon and Skullcrushers are, for me, two of the standout options in the chaos books. The chimera is also good but has a poor leadership, which is why they are often found running around with a flying Daemon Prince
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Post by bierbaron on Nov 8, 2021 19:49:31 GMT
Next game, I fielded my WoC, now themed on Tzeentch against Skaven. My list was a bit experimental for me, with some new units and magical gear that I wanted to try:
Chaos Lord, Selections: Mark of Tzeentch, Shield, Barded Chaos Steed, Soul Feeder, Hellfire Sword, Talisman of Endurance
Chaos Sorcerer, Lore of Death, Wizard Level 2, Barded Chaos Steed, Chaos Familiar, Charmed Shield, Ironcurse Icon, Obsidian Trinket, Sword of Might
3 X Chaos Chariot w Mark of Slaanesh
2 X 5 Chaos Warhounds 5 Marauder Horsemen w Musician, Flails, Mark of Slaanesh
8 Chaos Knights, CSM, Mark of Tzeentch, Ensorcelled weapons, Blasted Standard
I rolled and chose Spirit Leech, Caress of Laniph and Soulblight for my Wizard.
The Skaven fielded: Grey Seer with Skalm, ToP, Dispel Scroll Chieftain BSB, Heavy Armour and Halberd Warlock with Doomrocket Warlock Lvl 1 (I think) with Warp-Energy-Condenser
40 Slaves 35 Slaves 21(?) Clanrats, CSM 20 Stormrats, CSM + Ratling Team 5 Giant Rats + Packmaster 5 Giant Rats + Packmaster 5 Jezzails 6 Gutter Runners w Poison Warp Lightning Cannon Plague Claw Catapult
Before he placed the Hellpit Abomination, I asked how he fit all of this into 1500 points, and learned that he prepared a 1750 points list due to misunderstanding in our pregame conversations. He decided to simply drop the HPA from his list to make the list "legal". That was good and bad for me, as the model is really strong. I had the best counter available with my Lord with the Hellfire Sword, but a charging HPA would certainly also have done some damage.
His Grey Seer had the spells Skitterleap, Bless with Filth, Wither and Plague, the Warlock chose of course Warp Lightning.
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Post by bierbaron on Nov 19, 2021 17:05:13 GMT
Now on to the actual report. Sorry that it took me some time to continue here, but other parts of my life interfere sometimes with wargaming. Deployment and Turn 1 Chaos
So this is how it started. I took the risk of vanguarding my Marauder Horsemen on my right flank and won first turn. Theoretically, I was able to charge the Catapult in my next turn. The trusty Chariots all moved with Vmax to the center, my Knights (Chaos Lord delivery system) did not use their full movement to not get countercharged. In the magic phase, I rolled a decent number of dice (I had between 5 and 8 dice constantly during the whole game), targetted the Grey Seer with the sniping spells at my disposal and pressured the Skaven to stop Spirit Leech with a Dispel Scroll, the Caress of Laniph took one wound after saves. Not a bad start. The Skaven blocked the Marauder Horsemen's charge arc with a Slave unit, and tried to block the advance of the Chaos units with the disposable Giant rats. In the magic phase, a Warp Lightning killed four Marauder Horsemen, I dispelled the Plague, and the Warlock Engineer with the Doom Rocket was teleported into the left flank of my Chaos Knights. The Skaven warmachines, Rockets and Jezzails were all trained on the advancing Knights. The WLC suffered from a (harmless) misfire, but the Doom Rocket hit six knights, and the Catapult managed a direct hit on the knights. But the Blasted Standard protected the unit, and after the barrage only one Knight was killed. A bit frustrated, my opponent chose mainly other targets in the following rounds. The Ratling fired at a chariot, and inflicted one wound. Skaven T1
Chaos T2: The Knights failed their 13" charge on the Stormvermin, but the Chariots in the center and on the right charged their respective giant rats. The remaining Marauder repositioned to get into the catapult. The Dogs on the left advanced further to tie up the Jezzails. My magic was not effective in this round, both close combats were over after impact hits, and both Chariots overran deeply into the Skaven lines. Skaven T2 saw no charges, the Gutter Runners arrived and we saw a lot of repositioning and bracing for the upcoming turn. I don't remember exactly, but two Chaos Knights were killed either by magic (Plague) or possibly another direct hit from the Catapult. Anyway, Panic test was passed. The Ratling got skitterleaped into the front of the Knights to stall them. I now know that this is not possible, only characters can be teleported, but this made not much of a difference, as the shots of the Ratling were largely absorbed by the big bodies of the Chariot. The Gutter Runners killed two Chaos Hounds, but they passed their Panic test, which marked the beginning of a series of unlikely succesful Ld checks for my Warhounds. In C haos T3 I charged the Ratling with the Knights, the Jezzails with the Warhounds, the Slaves on the left flank with the Chariot as well as the Catapult on the right with the last Marauder Horseman. In my magic phase, I got off a big Soulblight with IF, the miscast was only a S6 hit for my only caster, which was absorbed by the charmed shield. Of course, the Ratling got wiped out and my Knights reformed, the Chariot killed quite a lot of Slaves, but they held steadfast, and the Marauder and the Catapult did a lot of nothing, but the Catapult held. The Warhounds did a great job, though: they killed one Jezzail and took one wound in return, and the Jezzails broke, fled off the board and panicked the WLC also off the board. Unfortunately, I forgot to take more pictures after this, but I will summarize: The Skaven retreated and repositioned again, took another round of shooting and magic which did not do much, one Chariot one the right flank fled a charge from an infantry block, but rallied in the following round. In my fourth turn, my Knights finally charged the Stormvermin, I got off another small Soulblight on them. The Lord killed the Champ in the challenge and received +1AS (so, nothing), the Vermin held steadfast, but were considerably thinned. The catapult killed the lone Marauder, the left Chariot lost combat with the Slaves, but it held on a 7 or 8. In the next turn, the Gutter Runners killed the glorious Warhounds, the Grey Seer gave the Slaves poison and ported himself to safety on the other side of the field. My Knights wiped out the Stormvermin and the BSB, leaving them free to charge the Clanrats next turn. The Slaves killed the left Chariot in Combat with their poison attacks and repositioned, but could not reach the Knights as they advanced and attacked further in my turn. It gets a bit hazy after that, but the Chaos Knights managed to wipe out the Clanrats in one or two combat rounds, and after the pursuit were too close to the Catapult to be shot at and out of range of the Grey Seer, and we called it after that. I lost the Marauder Horsemen, one Chariot and one or both units of Warhounds. They consistently passed panic and rally tests in this game. The Skaven lost the Stormvermin, Clanrats, BSB, Jezzails and WLC and possibly one Slave unit, I am not 100% sure anymore. But I am positive that we rolled for "Cornered rats" at least once. A short analysis of tactics and indivdual unit performance will follow. Here are some further impressions: Careful "planning" of Chaos, full steam ahead Chariot flees, but rallies in the next turn
Class vs Mass
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Post by bierbaron on Nov 19, 2021 22:05:27 GMT
Observations and thoughts after the game: - The Blasted Standard and the additional layer of protection against War Machines and Magic with the Ironcurse Icon and the Obsidian Trinket, enhanced by the Mark of Tzeentch to provide a 5+ Ward against these things was very good, but also much needed against the level of shooting that my army faced. Certainly a way to protect the many points put into one unit. - The core Chariots with the inexpensive MoS are key. They are rock hard, ItP without the downside and hit very hard on the charge. Really good unit, clears chaff easily and can also charge units of medium toughness and expect to win or kill the target. - The Warhounds certainly overperformed in this game, I never expect them to kill anything, but even if they just angle and stall enemy units by dying, they are doing their job. Never leave home without them! - The Marauder Horsemen also distracted part of the Skaven army, but sadly after just one Warp Lightning they could not fulfill their role anymore. Still, I will continue to field a unit or two. - The Hellfire Sword did not disappoint, and in this game, it certainly remedied the "Eye of the Gods" rule. Taking the challenge is still better than refusing for the opponent, but the multi-wound attribute compensates quite a bit for that with the nice overkill. Paired with MoT, a Talisman and Soul Feeder, the downside of the potential wound each turn is almost nonexistent. The best turn was still when there were no Skaven Heroes and Champions anymore, and the Chaos Lord killed 4 rats, exploding one for additional 5 hits. This weapon can make a Chaos Lord a good investment. Maybe I will try a disk rider with this setup later, so that an expensive Knight/Warrior bunker is not needed. - Death Magic was very scary for my opponent, but ultimately, it totally failed in its task of killing characters. I did two wounds net on the Grey Seer with Spirit Leech and Laniph in three magic phases. Mediocre rolls, the ToP and Skalm prevented any measurable game impact. On a lvl2, Shadow seems to be the stronger, or rather, more versatile lore. - The Chaos Knights were very good, but only thanks to the support of the Chaos Lord and all the layered protection. 50 points for only 1 wound is steep, even with T4 and 1+AS it can go downhill quickly for these guys. I think I will try to spread my points a bit more in the future. Having 2/3 of the army in one unit was possibly the correct way for this game, but it feels a bit odd.
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