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Post by johngg on Dec 18, 2021 9:49:32 GMT
Asking for a friend,
Can you combine Hail of Doom Arrow and Hawk-Eyed Archer ??
3D6 ignoring armour shots seems waaay too good to be true.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 18, 2021 12:48:32 GMT
It it is unclear. The Hawk-eye special rule comes into effect when making a shooting attack. The Hail of Doom Arrow, although for a model with Asrai longbow only, can be used instead of making a shooting attack with that bow, and it is not a missile weapon itself. That indicates that it is actually not a shooting attack, but a special attack that occurs during the Shooting phase (like the Ghostly Howl of a Banshee), and thus it would not stack with the HEA. It is not 100% clear, though. I myself was never a fan of such special attacks and would prefer to classify any ranged attack made in the Shooting phase as a shooting attack, in which case they would stack.
Wood Elves AB p. 48: Hawk-eyed Archer. Before a model with this special rule makes a shooting attack, decide whether it will make a fast shot or an aimed shot. If the former is chosen, the model’s missile weapon has the Multiple Shots (2) special rule for the duration of that attack. If the latter is chosen, then armour saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by the attack. Models in the same unit must choose the same type of shot.
Wood Elves AB p. 63: Hail of Doom Arrow. One use only. Model with Asrai longbow only. The Hail of Doom arrow can be used instead of making a shooting attack with the bearer’s Asrai longbow.
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Post by johngg on Dec 18, 2021 16:52:01 GMT
Excellent!!
As always FVSM you speak reason.
Seems pretty straight forward to me on the account that one rules forms part of a shooting attack, right he other in lieu of a shooting attack.
Thanks again
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Post by thegoat on Dec 18, 2021 17:26:25 GMT
I don't think it is as clear cut as stated above. The Hail of Doom Arrow has a missile weapon profile (WFB 8ed p. 89, "If the range is a number of some kind, it is a missile weapon"). Using a missile weapon is a shooting attack by definition.
The instead of clause is there to clarify that you use the Hail of Doom profile instead of the Asrai longbow profile. It does not mean using the Hail of Doom Arrow isn't a shooting attack.
It is confusingly phrased for sure. It is also unneeded as the missile weapons rules already specify you must choose which missile weapon to use (WFB 8ed p. 88, "If for some reason a model has more than one missile weapon, he is allowed to choose which one to fire during the Shooting phase.").
The Banshee Ghostly Howl is not a good analog to compare the Hail of Doom Arrow against. Ghostly Howl specifically states, "A Ghostly Howl is a special attack ..." It also doesn't have a weapon profile of any kind.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 18, 2021 18:04:57 GMT
As pointed out above, the Hail of Doom Arrow is not a missile weapon - it is not even a weapon, it is an enchanted item. The instead clause does not refer to using the profile, but to "making a shooting attack."
Compare this to enchanted arrows. These too are not weapons at all, but enchanted items, that change the profile of the actual missile weapon, Asrai Bow.
Wood Elves AB p. 37: "Each type of enchanted arrow replaces the profile of the Asrai longbow with the one shown in its entry. This is not optional - if a model has enchanted arrows, he must use them when shooting with an Asrai longbow."
Similarly, the Hail of Doom Arrow description could have read "The Hail of Doom arrow replaces the profile of the Asrai longbow with the one shown in its entry," in which case you would be right. Instead, it says "The Hail of Doom arrow can be used instead of making a shooting attack with the bearer’s Asrai longbow."
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Post by thegoat on Dec 18, 2021 18:30:17 GMT
Right, I missed the fact the Hail of Doom Arrow is an enchanted item not a magic weapon. That is a good point. I think that was done so a character could take both Hail of Doom Arrow and a magic sword. It seems like it wouldn't be a big deal. But it certainly adds confusion in this case.
I still don't read the instead of clause as referring to "making a shooting attack." The full sentence says, "The Hail of Doom arrow can be used instead of making a Shooting attack with the bearer’s Asrai longbow." I don't see how that excludes Hail of Doom from being a shooting attack. I read it as the word Shooting is added as clarification as to the type of attack the Asrai Longbow would make, if it were to be used. So that sentence could be simplified to, "The Hail of Doom arrow can be used instead of making an attack with the bearer’s Asrai longbow." But I also see how the sentence could be simplified the way you read it.
End of the day, for me, the fact it has a weapon profile like any other missile weapon and it is used in the shooting phase, means it is a shooting attack. And Hawk-Eyed Archer would apply.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 18, 2021 21:34:54 GMT
I still don't read the instead of clause as referring to "making a shooting attack." The full sentence says, "The Hail of Doom arrow can be used instead of making a Shooting attack with the bearer’s Asrai longbow." I don't see how that excludes Hail of Doom from being a shooting attack. I read it as the word Shooting is added as clarification as to the type of attack the Asrai Longbow would make, if it were to be used. So that sentence could be simplified to, "The Hail of Doom arrow can be used instead of making an attack with the bearer’s Asrai longbow." But I also see how the sentence could be simplified the way you read it. That is the whole point: it is clearly not a "clarification" as to the type of attack the Asrai Longbow would make, if it were to be used. "The Hail of Doom arrow can be used instead of making a Shooting attack with the bearer’s Asrai longbow." So, you do not make a Shooting attack with the Asrai Longbow. Now, which missile weapon do you use instead? There is none. It is not the HoDA, which is an enchanted item. That still could count as a missile weapon or shooting attack, if it were specifically stated that it counts as such, but it is not, so it does not. End of the day, for me, the fact it has a weapon profile like any other missile weapon and it is used in the shooting phase, means it is a shooting attack. And Hawk-Eyed Archer would apply. That is already disproved by the example of the enchanted arrows I gave above. They do have a profile of missile weapons, but are not missile weapons themselves. Likewise, the Ghostly Howl of the Banshee and the Death Shriek of the Terrorgheist also have a profile like a missile weapon, but are not. Granted, these do specify that they are special attacks in the Shooting Phase. That is exactly why I said in my first post that it was unclear/not 100% clear. That said: I myself was never a fan of such special attacks and would prefer to classify any ranged attack made in the Shooting phase as a shooting attack, in which case they would stack. But my personal preference is neither here nor there.
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Post by thegoat on Dec 18, 2021 22:47:19 GMT
I still don't read the instead of clause as referring to "making a shooting attack." The full sentence says, "The Hail of Doom arrow can be used instead of making a Shooting attack with the bearer’s Asrai longbow." I don't see how that excludes Hail of Doom from being a shooting attack. I read it as the word Shooting is added as clarification as to the type of attack the Asrai Longbow would make, if it were to be used. So that sentence could be simplified to, "The Hail of Doom arrow can be used instead of making an attack with the bearer’s Asrai longbow." But I also see how the sentence could be simplified the way you read it. That is the whole point: it is clearly not a "clarification" as to the type of attack the Asrai Longbow would make, if it were to be used. "The Hail of Doom arrow can be used instead of making a Shooting attack with the bearer’s Asrai longbow." So, you do not make a Shooting attack with the Asrai Longbow. Now, which missile weapon do you use instead? There is none. It is not the HoDA, which is an enchanted item. That still could count as a missile weapon or shooting attack, if it were specifically stated that it counts as such, but it is not, so it does not. You are correct the Hail of Doom Arrow doesn't specifically state it counts as a shooting attack. It also never specifically states what type of attack it is, or counts as, or even if it is an attack at all. The argument, "it does't specifically state X so therefore not X" is B.S. Let me use that logic for a moment... The rules for enchanted items (WFB 8ed p. 177) never say you can use an enchanted item to make an attack. Now, lets read the Hail of Doom rule again, "The Hail of Doom Arrow can be used instead of making a Shooting attack with the bearer's Asrai longbow.". But used is never defined. It never specifically states the model can attack with the profile below. So therefore the model can not attack. That means when the Hail of Doom Arrow is used but no attack happens. Consuming the one use only item is just an action that happens instead of attacking with the Asrai longbow. Nothing more and nothing less. Sorry, that is absurd. It is left up to the players to intelligently determine what using the Hail of doom Arrow means. Obviously it is clear that using the Hail of Doom Arrow means the model makes a shooting attack with the missile weapon profile below. End of the day, for me, the fact it has a weapon profile like any other missile weapon and it is used in the shooting phase, means it is a shooting attack. And Hawk-Eyed Archer would apply. That is already disproved by the example of the enchanted arrows I gave above. They do have a profile of missile weapons, but are not missile weapons themselves. Likewise, the Ghostly Howl of the Banshee and the Death Shriek of the Terrorgheist also have a profile like a missile weapon, but are not. Granted, these do specify that they are special attacks in the Shooting Phase. That is exactly why that I said in my first post that it was unclear/not 100% clear. I don't follow your argument regarding enchanted arrows. They have very differently worded rules compared to hail of Doom Arrow. That said, surly shooting an Asrai Longbow with enchanted arrows counts as a shooting attack? Ghostly Howl and Death Shriek don't have weapon profiles in my Vampire counts Army Book. They just have two paragraphs of rules each. But no weapon profiles. Further more they are both special rules not enchanted items. So I don't see any relevant comparison to the Hail of Doom Arrow question. That said: I myself was never a fan of such special attacks and would prefer to classify any ranged attack made in the Shooting phase as a shooting attack, in which case they would stack. But my personal preference is not here or there. Agreed, this is just a friendly "what if" discussion.
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Post by johngg on Dec 19, 2021 11:49:30 GMT
That said: But my personal preference is not here or there. Agreed, this is just a friendly "what if" discussion. Personally, when rules obscurity such as this bubbles up I tend to go with the maxim "if it seems to good to be true, it probably is" And for me, the idea of a being able to shoot 3d6 armour ignoring shots is a little too good to be true. In context, considering its relatively cheap points, average of 10 shots, likely hitting on 2's. So if the ignores armour is allowed you're almost guaranteed to delete a unit in excess of its points which, is not usual in the game.
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Post by thegoat on Dec 19, 2021 13:27:39 GMT
Agreed, this is just a friendly "what if" discussion. Personally, when rules obscurity such as this bubbles up I tend to go with the maxim "if it seems to good to be true, it probably is" And for me, the idea of a being able to shoot 3d6 armour ignoring shots is a little too good to be true. In context, considering its relatively cheap points, average of 10 shots, likely hitting on 2's. So if the ignores armour is allowed you're almost guaranteed to delete a unit in excess of its points which, is not usual in the game. Game balance-wise you are spot on. It is too powerful for the points. It has never actually come up. But I think if it did, my group would make a gentleman's agreement to not use this combo of character and magic item. My posts above are like I said, purely a "what if" discussion of the rules. I think technically it is permitted. But I'm not advocating people actually use it.
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Post by johngg on Dec 19, 2021 13:33:10 GMT
Yes I agree, as FVSM said right at the beginning its certainly a grey area and would benefit from being FAQ'd. But we're not going to see that now, so we'll have to rely on that most elusive of qualities in our hobby, that of "common sense"! [God help us!]
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Post by Crazy_Dokta on Dec 19, 2021 15:51:38 GMT
Guys, it's simple Waystalker (only char with "Hawk-eye" rule) cannot take Hail arrow. It's 30pts, and Waystalker has only 25pts allowance.
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Post by johngg on Dec 19, 2021 15:53:06 GMT
Guys, it's simple Waystalker (only char with "Hawk-eye" rule) cannot take Hail arrow. It's 30pts, and Waystalker has only 25pts allowance. 😂
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Post by thegoat on Dec 19, 2021 16:13:13 GMT
How did I miss that? Epic facepalm on my part!
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Post by johngg on Dec 19, 2021 19:35:20 GMT
How did I miss that? Epic facepalm on my part! Epic facepalm moment for all of us really! 😄😄😄
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