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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2021 9:42:30 GMT
In the movement phase my unit of knights charge into an enemy unit. In the magic phase the Prophetess of the Lady sitting in the second rank of the unit casts Transformation of Kadon on her herself transforming into a big beastie creating the situation below, with the Prophetess taking up the space of 4 knights (sorry for the poor quality diagram):
Enemy Enemy Knight Knight Enemy Knight Prophetess Knight Enemy Knight Knight Knight Knight Enemy
My question is how many attacks can the Prophetess make? Is it all of them or only one?
Thanks
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 22, 2021 12:16:10 GMT
RAW, only 1. Since the position of the Prophetess (if not in the front) must be in the centre of the Lance, she can only make supporting attacks, and monsters do not have a rule that allows them more than 1. Note that, in normal circumstances, monsters cannot make any supporting attacks, because they cannot join units. If you and your opponent agree, you could extend the Monstrous Support special rule of the monstrous beasts/infantry/cavalry to monsters, in which case the monster Prophetess would be allowed up to three supporting attacks.
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Post by baaderthegreat on Dec 22, 2021 13:19:20 GMT
Is it still a lance formation?
If a lance formation is defined in a way that only knights and mounted characters may be part of the unit, then wouldn't a monster appearing in that unit turn the lance formation in an ordinary 3-models-wide-formation without any special advantages?
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Post by sedge on Dec 22, 2021 13:32:33 GMT
Isn't this a moot* question? Transformation of Kadon says "...is an augment spell that can only be cast upon the Wizard, and only if he is on foot". A Prophetess in a Lance formation is not on foot. Nor is she a he *insert Halfling joke here
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 22, 2021 13:41:42 GMT
There is actually no such definition. There is nothing in the rules to prevent characters on foot to join a Lance, but that would normally largely defeat its purpose, since the unit would move at the same rate as the slowest model. One could imagine a Damsel/Prophetess on foot joining later in the game - but that would be very situational.
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Post by sedge on Dec 22, 2021 13:58:43 GMT
Interesting, so if a Damsel/Prophetess on foot joins the unit they'd still be placed in the centre of the second rank, and everything else would form up really messily around her with some gaps? I would have thought the "When Footprints Collide" rule (BRB, p98) would apply.
The main point - pgamopi's situation is moot, since he's asking about a mounted Prophetess casting Transformation, which they couldn't. But you could then get a foot one casting that spell, which means the question is valid.
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Post by baaderthegreat on Dec 22, 2021 14:30:01 GMT
Really interesting. I looked it up, it just says: "Knights in Lance formation form up into ranks only three models wide. [...] Any unit of Knights may start the game in Lance formation. [...] In effect, if by any means a unit of Bretonnian Knights is formed into a unit three models wide, it is treated as being in Lance formation. [...] Character must be placed in the front rank [...] A Damsel or a Prophetess may be placed in the centre of the second rank of the Lance formation rather than the fron rank [...]."
What I get from that: - Only knights may be put in Lance formation. It is not mentioned that the knights have to be mounted. However, since all Bretonnian non-character knights are mounted, a unit in Lance formation will always be a cavalry unit. - It isn't stated that the characters have to be mounted. However, it is stated that they have to go to the first rank, with the exception of Damsels and Prophetesses. However, models with the "wrong footprint" (in this case, models that aren't mounted) cannot be placed there, they would have to go to the side. - Strictly speaking, it isn't even mentioned that the characters have to be Bretonnian. Is this intended? If Bretonnians are allied with the Empire, may an Imperial character (mounted or not) join a Bretonnian unit in Lance formation?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2021 15:36:17 GMT
Thanks for all the responses.
To be honest I had forgotten that Transformation can only be cast on a model on foot so it's unlikely to come up in a game (although not impossible as has been pointed out).
On a related note, does this mean that if you put the Fey Enchantress in Lance formation then Silvaron cannot attack? I know that the Fey Enchantress has to go 'in the Centre of the second rank' so her mount cannot make supporting attacks, but due to footprint size there will only be two models in the rank so she will also be on the flank so would be eligible for full attacks on the charge?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 22, 2021 15:42:08 GMT
sedge : Yes, the Damsel on foot would be placed on the edge, but I was rather thinking that "If the Wizard is in a unit, he can remain within the unit, even though he is now technically a monster (although you may have to reorder the unit a little to make him fit" should work both ways. After all, the only reason a Prophetess on foot would be on the edge is the fact that her normal base size does not fit, but as a monster Prophetess her base size does fit. baaderthegreat : That is all correct. Regarding the last point: whether it is intentional or not, a character from trusted allies can indeed join the Lance. Edit: Originally, "foreign" characters were not an option, since the Bretonnia Army List did not have the Dogs of War entry as a rare choice.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 22, 2021 15:48:12 GMT
Thanks for all the responses. To be honest I had forgotten that Transformation can only be cast on a model on foot so it's unlikely to come up in a game (although not impossible as has been pointed out). On a related note, does this mean that if you put the Fey Enchantress in Lance formation then Silvaron cannot attack? I know that the Fey Enchantress has to go 'in the Centre of the second rank' so her mount cannot make supporting attacks, but due to footprint size there will only be two models in the rank so she will also be on the flank so would be eligible for full attacks on the charge? Yes, Silvaron cannot make a supporting attack, since the troop type of the Fay is monstrous cavalry. And even though the Fay would have displaced a knight because of he base size, ruleswise, she is still in the centre of the unit, because that is the only place she is allowed to be, if not in the front rank.
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Post by baaderthegreat on Dec 22, 2021 16:10:10 GMT
The old model of the Fay Enchantress came with a cavalry base. Could it be that the rule for her placement was originally made with that base in mind? Like, GW later changed the model (and the base size), but they didn't think of changing the rule where she has to be placed in the Lance formation?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 22, 2021 16:55:34 GMT
As stated in the rules themselves, they are primarily for the Damsel/Prophetess who can be mounted on a Bretonnian warhorse. The Fay Enchantress counts as a Prophetess for forming the Lance formation. When making the new model, I doubt that the creator had any thought about the Lance formation. Besides, in the 6th/7th edition, the use of Lords/Heroes, in particular SC, was far more restricted.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2021 16:55:40 GMT
Final question from me on this:
If I have 3 Paladins on Warhorses forming the front rank of the Lance and a Paladin on a Pegasus taking up two slots in the second rank can the Paladin and Pegasus both make their full attacks? Or as they are in both the 'Centre' and the 'Flank' can I only make 1 supporting attack from the Paladin like the Fay Enchantress?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 22, 2021 17:05:10 GMT
The Fay Enchantress, being a Prophetess, must be placed in the centre, the Paladin has no such obligation. But just like with models on foot, I am not sure why you would put him in a Lance.
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Post by vulcan on Dec 23, 2021 5:14:21 GMT
The Fay Enchantress, being a Prophetess, must be placed in the centre, the Paladin has no such obligation. But just like with models on foot, I am not sure why you would put him in a Lance. Been a long time since I've looked at the rules on this. Is it 'must' or 'may'?
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