|
Post by baaderthegreat on Jan 17, 2022 16:49:38 GMT
A Goblin Shaman casts Gift of the Spider-god on a Spear Chukka...
The Spear Chukka fires at a unit of Ironbreakers (4 ranks). The To Hit roll is a 6, so... what happens next?
a) An Ironbreaker in the first rank is automatically wounded, than another in the second rank, then another in the third rank, then another in the fourth rank.
b) An Ironbreaker in the first rank is automatically wounded. After that, you have to roll for all the other To Wound rolls.
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 17, 2022 17:21:31 GMT
Since a bolt thrower only rolls to hit once, and does not allow armour saves, all the Ironbreakers are wounded and slain automatically - unless, of course, they would be entitled to ward saves and one of them passes.
|
|
|
Post by 1plussave on Jan 17, 2022 18:37:35 GMT
A note on the subject; the Lizardmen FAQ is of the opinion that in the Example of the Giant Bow the only hit that wounds automatically is the first as it is the hit you rolled a 6 for, likely as the others are automatic hits caused by a wound roll and therefore each must roll to wound. This is an FAQ rather than an Errata so it appears that this is something the writers assumed automatically in the case of weapons that penetrate ranks as a bolt thrower, rather than something they thought needed to be stated generally.
This really should have been in the Main FAQ as well but there aren't a ton of poisoned bolt throwers.
|
|
|
Post by knoffles on Jan 17, 2022 19:19:50 GMT
A note on the subject; the Lizardmen FAQ is of the opinion that in the Example of the Giant Bow the only hit that wounds automatically is the first as it is the hit you rolled a 6 for, likely as the others are automatic hits caused by a wound roll and therefore each must roll to wound. This is an FAQ rather than an Errata so it appears that this is something the writers assumed automatically in the case of weapons that penetrate ranks as a bolt thrower, rather than something they thought needed to be stated generally. This really should have been in the Main FAQ as well but there aren't a ton of poisoned bolt throwers. Is this an FAQ for an earlier edition of the game, as Lizards didn’t get one in 8th.
|
|
|
Post by 1plussave on Jan 17, 2022 20:39:06 GMT
A note on the subject; the Lizardmen FAQ is of the opinion that in the Example of the Giant Bow the only hit that wounds automatically is the first as it is the hit you rolled a 6 for, likely as the others are automatic hits caused by a wound roll and therefore each must roll to wound. This is an FAQ rather than an Errata so it appears that this is something the writers assumed automatically in the case of weapons that penetrate ranks as a bolt thrower, rather than something they thought needed to be stated generally. This really should have been in the Main FAQ as well but there aren't a ton of poisoned bolt throwers. Is this an FAQ for an earlier edition of the game, as Lizards didn’t get one in 8th. Right, Maybe I should say the last FAQ they got rather than that. Its the only time I recall it being mentioned , though perhaps not current.I still think in any case that the rules about automatics hits is what covers it here; the first hit you rolled for, the next hit is automatic.
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 17, 2022 21:10:59 GMT
1plussave: Although from an earlier edition, I think we can use that FAQ as a precedent.
|
|
|
Post by vulcan on Jan 18, 2022 21:34:24 GMT
Somewhere in the FAQs, it says that if you don't roll to hit poison does not come into play. Sorta like how if you don't roll to wound Killing Blow never comes into play.
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 18, 2022 23:44:28 GMT
That is not correct on two counts. It is not in an FAQ, nor does it say as such "if you do not roll to hit." What you are referring to is in the Poisoned Attacks special rule itself (BRB p. 73): "Note that if a Poisoned shooting attack needs to roll a 7 or more to hit, or hits automatically, then the Poisoned attacks rule does not come into play" [Italics mine].
However, in the particular case of bolt throwers, subsequent hits are not actually automatic - they are dependent on the model in the previous rank being slain outright. So, in the case of PA, a roll to hit of 6 wounds automatically, but because bolt throwers do not allow armour saves, the next model always will be hit, unless it has an ward save. Hence, it can be interpreted either way. The FAQ of the overlap Lizardmen 7th edition AB Upgrade Version for the 8th edition indicates that this does equate to "hits automatically."
|
|
|
Post by thegoat on Jan 19, 2022 0:04:40 GMT
That is not correct on two counts. It is not in an FAQ, nor does it say as such "if you do not roll to hit." What you are referring to is in the Poisoned Attacks special rule itself (BRB p. 73): "Note that if a Poisoned shooting attack needs to roll a 7 or more to hit, or hits automatically, then the Poisoned attacks rule does not come into play" [ Italics mine]. However, in the particular case of bolt throwers, subsequent hits are not actually automatic - they are dependent on the model in the previous rank being slain outright. So, in the case of PA, it can be interpreted either way. The FAQ of the overlap Lizardmen 7th edition AB Upgrade Version for the 8th edition indicates that this does equate to "hits automatically." I see what you are saying. But I think, for each the previous model that dies, each subsequent rank piercing hit is an automatic hit. There is no roll to hit, therefore it hits automatically. And the poisoned attacks rule would not apply.
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 19, 2022 9:57:35 GMT
thegoat : In practice, it may end up the same, ruleswise it is not. This is easily demonstrated by replacing the Ironbrakers by e.g. Ogres. The poisoned bolt thrower inflicts 1 W on the model in the front rank, and the bolt travels no further. Clearly, the models in the back ranks are not hit automatically. If an attack hits automatically, you do not roll to Hit; however, that does not necessarily mean that if you do not have to roll to Hit, it is (ruleswise) an attack that hits automatically. Indeed, automatic hits are generally identified as such, which the rules of the bolt thrower fail to do. That is what the old FAQ addresses. Edit: Perhaps this will clarify things: these are not separate attacks, for which you would need to roll to Hit separately; it is one single attack, for which you need to roll to Hit only once, and if you have done so successfully, every model in the path of the bolt is hit. However, because of the rules of the bolt thrower, the bolt can be stopped in its track. This is in parallel with the cannon, where the cannon ball does hit automatically every model in its path after the bounce, but can also be stopped in its track. On a side note: the FAQ indicates again that the authors do not seem to really sift through the old FAQ, when writing the new BRB/ABs. Likewise, the fact that there was an FAQ on a certain matter, does not mean that the same answer will be given in the next edition. For instance, GW has flip-flopped its stance over editions on whether the Righteous Fury of a WP affected mounts or not. Since there will not be a next edition (at least not any time soon), we can stick with the old FAQ.
|
|
|
Post by thegoat on Jan 19, 2022 12:37:28 GMT
Edit: Perhaps this will clarify things: these are not separate attacks, for which you would need to roll to Hit separately; it is one single attack, for which you need to roll to Hit only once, and if you have done so successfully, every model in the path of the bolt is hit. However, because of the rules of the bolt thrower, the bolt can be stopped in its track. On a side note: the FAQ indicates again that the authors do not seem to really sift through the old FAQ, when writing the new BRB/ABs. Likewise, the fact that there was an FAQ on a certain matter, does not mean that the same answer will be given in the next edition. For instance, GW has flip-flopped its stance over editions on whether the Righteous Fury of a WP affected mounts or not. Since there will not be a next edition (at least not any time soon), we can stick with the old FAQ. Yea, we are thinking about it slightly differently. But we agree on the in game effect, so that is good! I think the bolt thrower rank piercing does create new attacks, which hit automatically. I defiantly agree they should have reviewed the previous FAQ and wrote clearer rules in subsequent additions.
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 19, 2022 12:50:24 GMT
I think the bolt thrower rank piercing does create new attacks, which hit automatically. This cannot be correct. 1 shot = 1 attack, to wit the general rules regarding shooting and the specific example of the DE repeater bolt thrower, which can fire either a single normal bolt thrower shot, or 6 separate shots, for which it has to roll to Hit separately, and which do not pierce ranks. Note also the parallel with the cannon (which I added above while you were writing).
|
|
|
Post by johngg on Jan 21, 2022 8:42:07 GMT
1plussave : Although from an earlier edition, I think we can use that FAQ as a precedent. seems the most 'common sense ' thing to do
|
|
|
Post by johngg on Jan 21, 2022 8:44:45 GMT
I think the bolt thrower rank piercing does create new attacks, which hit automatically. This cannot be correct. 1 shot = 1 attack, to wit the general rules regarding shooting and the specific example of the DE repeater bolt thrower, which can fire either a single normal bolt thrower shot, or 6 separate shots, for which it has to roll to Hit separately, and which do not pierce ranks. Note also the parallel with the cannon (which I added above while you were writing). ooh, is there any way I can give my Druchii Bolt Throwers poison?!
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 21, 2022 9:47:50 GMT
johngg: You can in an alliance with DoC or O&G (both of which have augment spells that grant Poisoned attacks).
|
|