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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 14, 2022 9:04:04 GMT
No. You should read more carefully. It is not the unit that is affected but "all models in the unit." That said: even if the description of the BotW would simply say "the unit" the argument still would not hold water. Here as with spells: effects that affect a unit, affect everyone in that unit. But that is not the case with the BoA, where a friendly Wizard gets a bonus, if he targets the unit with a Life or Light spell. If he does not target the unit, he does not get the bonus. Casting a spell on himself is not targeting the unit but himself. Ok we’re going round in circles now. Well, it is not me going around in circles. I have given enough arguments. The BoA gives a bonus in case of spells that affect the unit. I have shown that spells specifically distinguish between units and other targets, like Wizards. I have shown that (augment and hex) spells that affect units affect all models in the unit. So far, the only argument you presented was the parallel with the BotWD, which is demonstrably flawed.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 14, 2022 9:50:14 GMT
Speaking about parallels: I'd rather draw one with the Sniper special rule. You can either target a unit, with all the rules that entails, or at a specific model, with all the rules that entails. If you target the unit, you do not target s specific model; and if you target a specific model, you do not target a unit. Likewise, spells that target a unit do not target specific models, and spells that target specific models, do not target a unit.
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Post by johngg on May 14, 2022 19:31:11 GMT
Speaking about parallels: I'd rather draw one with the Sniper special rule. You can either target a unit, with all the rules that entails, or at a specific model, with all the rules that entails. If you target the unit, you do not target s specific model; and if you target a specific model, you do not target a unit. Likewise, spells that target a unit do not target specific models, and spells that target specific models, do not target a unit. Indeed, but you are tying yourself in Ono s here and clutching at a rule that does not involve a spell. We have asked three times why the banner rule would be deficient to the spell rule without reply. If there is an argument to be had, we are yet to hear it. As such. If the argument can not be challenged t must be assumed that your opinion is just that, an opinion. Which of course. Is fine.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 14, 2022 20:41:39 GMT
Complete and utter humbug. That is the point of a parallel: there are some differences, but the underlying principle is the same. Furthermore, I replied each and every time, pointing out that the banner rule is not conflicting with the spell rule: if you have not heard the answer, it is because you put both fingers in your ears and refused to listen. You certainly have not posted here any argument that would refute my argument. Indeed, you have not posted any argument in favour of your position, except the stillborn parallel of the BotW.
I'll reply once more in detail, but with little hope of an actual rules based answer.
The description of the BoA states (High Elves AB p. 59): "Spells from the Lore of Light and the Lore of Life cast by a friendly Wizard that target a unit containing the Banner of Avelorn receive a +4 bonus to cast."
So, the following conditions must be met for the bonus:
1. It must be a spell from the Lore of Light or the Lore of Life (we'll take that as a given) 2. It must be cast by a friendly Wizard (we'll take that also as a given). 3. It must be a spell that targets a unit (that is the crux of the matter) 4. It must be a unit that contains the BoA (obviously, we'll take that as a given too).
As I keep pointing out: unless the spell targets the unit, the BoA does not apply - that is not too difficult to grasp is it? You never once addressed this crucial point.
As also pointed out a before, there are spells that target
1. a unit - in which case "everyone (including the character) in the combined unit will be affected" (BRB p. 100). 2. a single (enemy) model within a unit - in which case nobody else is affected 3. a character (such as the Wizard himself) on his own or within a unit - in which case nobody else is affected 4. the Wizard and his unit - in which case both are affected
Now, let us just see which of the augment spells of the Lore of Life targets a unit:
Earth Blood: targets the Wizard and his unit - the BoA applies Flesh to Stone: targets the unit - the BoA applies Throne of Vines: targets the Wizard - the BoA does not apply Shield of Thorns: targets the unit - the Boa applies Regrowth: targets the unit - the BoA applies.
Again, that should not be too difficult to grasp, and unless you actually come up at least once with an argument addressing the crux of the matter, there is no point for me in continuing this discussion.
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Post by Horace on May 14, 2022 20:56:32 GMT
For what my opinion is worth, I agree with Fvon's interpretation
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Post by thegoat on May 14, 2022 23:37:19 GMT
For what my opinion is worth, I agree with Fvon's interpretation Agreed. Some rule questions are open to interpretation. But this one is clear cut. The banner states who benifets from it's bonus. The spell states who is targeted. The two do not intersect.
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Post by johngg on May 16, 2022 9:00:05 GMT
But this one is clear cut. The banner states who benifets from it's bonus. The spell states who is targeted. The two do not intersect. Well, its clearly not clear cut as you have contradicted yourself. The banner states who benefits, yes, the whole unit, which includes the Wizard. The spell states who is targeted, yes, the Wizard, who is still in unit. QED the two do indeed intersect. I think this discussion is done.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 16, 2022 11:20:42 GMT
That is not a rules' argument, but a syllogistic fallacy. Ruleswise, the spell description specifically states what the target is - nothing more, nothing less. Indeed, the fact that there are spells targeting both the Wizard and his unit proves beyond reasonable doubt that your interpretation is wrong.
And to put a final nail in the coffin, there are spells like Pann's Impenetrable Pelt which render your position absurd.
"Pann's Impenetrable Pelt is an augment spell that is cast upon the Wizard or another friendly character within 12". The target gains +3 Toughness until the start of the caster's next Magic phase. The Wizard can choose to instead have his spell target all friendly characters within 12" (including himself). If he does so, the casting value is increased to 16+."
So, in your interpretation, since the Wizard/character is targeted, any unit he is in is targeted too, and thus every model in that unit gains +3T. Good luck with that.
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Post by thegoat on May 16, 2022 11:25:17 GMT
But this one is clear cut. The banner states who benifets from it's bonus. The spell states who is targeted. The two do not intersect. Well, its clearly not clear cut as you have contradicted yourself. The banner states who benefits, yes, the whole unit, which includes the Wizard. The spell states who is targeted, yes, the Wizard, who is still in unit. QED the two do indeed intersect. I think this discussion is done. The banner's rules state, "Spells...that target a unit containing the Banner..." The Wizard (who is the sole target of the spell) is in the unit containing the Banner, but he is not a unit containing the Banner. As I said above, there is no intersection.
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Post by johngg on May 16, 2022 13:13:22 GMT
That is not a rules' argument, but a syllogistic fallacy. Ruleswise, the spell description specifically states what the target is - nothing more, nothing less. Indeed, the fact that there are spells targeting both the Wizard and his unit proves beyond reasonable doubt that your interpretation is wrong. And to put a final nail in the coffin, there are spells like Pann's Impenetrable Pelt which render your position absurd. "Pann's Impenetrable Pelt is an augment spell that is cast upon the Wizard or another friendly character within 12". The target gains +3 Toughness until the start of the caster's next Magic phase. The Wizard can choose to instead have his spell target all friendly characters within 12" (including himself). If he does so, the casting value is increased to 16+." So, in your interpretation, since the Wizard/character is targeted, any unit he is in is targeted too, and thus every model in that unit gains +3T. Good luck with that. Well now you are being rediculous. You're now intentionally misrepresenting my position. And with that, and as I said, in my previous I believe this discussion closed.
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Post by johngg on May 16, 2022 13:14:16 GMT
That is not a rules' argument, but a syllogistic fallacy. Ruleswise, the spell description specifically states what the target is - nothing more, nothing less. Indeed, the fact that there are spells targeting both the Wizard and his unit proves beyond reasonable doubt that your interpretation is wrong. And to put a final nail in the coffin, there are spells like Pann's Impenetrable Pelt which render your position absurd. "Pann's Impenetrable Pelt is an augment spell that is cast upon the Wizard or another friendly character within 12". The target gains +3 Toughness until the start of the caster's next Magic phase. The Wizard can choose to instead have his spell target all friendly characters within 12" (including himself). If he does so, the casting value is increased to 16+." So, in your interpretation, since the Wizard/character is targeted, any unit he is in is targeted too, and thus every model in that unit gains +3T. Good luck with that. Well now you are being rediculous. You're now intentionally misrepresenting my position. And with that, and as I said, in my previous I believe this discussion closed. Well hey, if you don't see it, you don't see it. i can't help you.
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pete
New Member
Posts: 29
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Post by pete on May 16, 2022 21:31:46 GMT
Now if the wizard ate the banner (or got it in himself some other way - would that include the pole too?), then he would count as a unit with the banner in it and he would get +4 to cast, although it might be quite uncomfortable…
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Post by Horace on May 16, 2022 22:07:11 GMT
Dug out my rulebook and had a read and it is perhaps not as clear as I thought. It is another slightly murky area in the rules but I am still inclined to agree with Fvon. I think the Pann's effect is a good parallel, although I am not quite 100% satisfied.
Here are some of the pertinent nuggets I saw
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Post by TyrrenAzureblade on May 16, 2022 22:53:36 GMT
If I ever play anyone that thinks Throne of Vines affects the whole unit, I'm going to throw all my mages into the same unit then.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 17, 2022 7:51:37 GMT
The combined units rule is correct, but not really relevant here, because the issue is targeting. Normally, you can target only units in Shooting, and only models in CC. In Magic you can do both. The combined units rules address some issues for targeting in Shooting and CC, but not for Magic. Hence, all the normal rules for targeting in Magic apply: 1. the general targeting rules on BRB p. 31 (for instance, if a spell targets a character in a combined unit, the character itself must be in range and forward arc - it does not suffice that the unit would be in range and the forward arc) 2. the specific targeting rules for each individual spell. Which leads us back to this: The description of the BoA states (High Elves AB p. 59): "Spells from the Lore of Light and the Lore of Life cast by a friendly Wizard that target a unit containing the Banner of Avelorn receive a +4 bonus to cast." So, the following conditions must be met for the bonus: 1. It must be a spell from the Lore of Light or the Lore of Life (we'll take that as a given) 2. It must be cast by a friendly Wizard (we'll take that also as a given). 3. It must be a spell that targets a unit (that is the crux of the matter) 4. It must be a unit that contains the BoA (obviously, we'll take that as a given too). As I keep pointing out: unless the spell targets the unit, the BoA does not apply - that is not too difficult to grasp is it? You never once addressed this crucial point. As also pointed out a before, there are spells that target 1. a unit - in which case "everyone (including the character) in the combined unit will be affected" (BRB p. 100). 2. a single (enemy) model within a unit - in which case nobody else is affected 3. a character (such as the Wizard himself) on his own or within a unit - in which case nobody else is affected 4. the Wizard and his unit - in which case both are affected Now, let us just see which of the augment spells of the Lore of Life targets a unit: Earth Blood: targets the Wizard and his unit - the BoA applies Flesh to Stone: targets the unit - the BoA applies Throne of Vines: targets the Wizard - the BoA does not apply Shield of Thorns: targets the unit - the Boa applies Regrowth: targets the unit - the BoA applies.
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