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Post by knoffles on May 12, 2022 15:48:46 GMT
Double question for the group.
Banner of Avelorn
Would a mage inside a unit carrying the banner of Avelorn, get a +4 cast if they cast throne of vines on themselves? Or would they not as it is cast on them and not the unit? (My thought was the latter).
Wildheart attribute
If a mounted character joined a unit of infantry and say wyssans was cast on the unit, would the cast get the -1 to cast bonus from the attribute? Again my thought was no, as the character doesn’t change the unit type to Cav.
As a follow up, if the spell was cast on him an he then joined the unit, would they get the +1 to Str/toughness (I think that is how it would work based on pg97 of the brb).
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Post by johngg on May 12, 2022 18:17:42 GMT
<Following> 😂
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 12, 2022 21:45:21 GMT
Banner of Avelorn: your thought was correct.
Wildheart: your thought was correct.
Wyssan's: your thought was not correct, because it is not a spell that can affect units that have not been targeted. For that to happen, you need a phrase like "and any unit the Wizard has joined."
That said, even if it were, there would normally not be much use to it: the Wizard could only join another unit just before the Magic phase that ends the spell. I guess, it could help with some terrain tests, but since it does not work anyway, the point is moot.
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Post by johngg on May 13, 2022 8:25:32 GMT
Banner of Avelorn: your thought was correct. Can you flesh this out a little for us chap, thanks here’s a guy in FB who will want a breakdown. Thanks
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 13, 2022 13:13:59 GMT
johngg Spells can target 4 things: 1. a unit - in which case "everyone (including the character) in the combined unit will be affected" (BRB p. 100). 2. a single (enemy) model within a unit - in which case nobody else is affected 3. a character (such as the Wizard himself) on his own or within a unit - in which case nobody else is affected 4. the Wizard and his unit - in which case both are affected but as always: unless specifically stated otherwise. You may perhaps wonder what the difference is between 1 & 4. Well, if a unit is targeted, a character will only be affected as long as he remains within that unit. If the Wizard and his unit are targeted, both will remain affected, even if the Wizard leaves the unit. The description of the BoA states (High Elves AB p. 59): "Spells from the Lore of Light and the Lore of Life cast by a friendly Wizard that target a unit containing the Banner of Avelorn receive a +4 bonus to cast." However, Throne of Vines specifically states that it is cast on the Wizard, and therefore not the unit he is in. Indeed, if the unit would be the target, then everyone in it would be affected. But they are not, so it is not. Hence, the Wizard does not get the bonus when he casts spells on himself.
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Post by johngg on May 13, 2022 13:55:24 GMT
johngg Spells can target 4 things: 1. a unit - in which case "everyone (including the character) in the combined unit will be affected" (BRB p. 100). 2. a single (enemy) model within a unit - in which case nobody else is affected 3. a character (such as the Wizard himself) on his own or within a unit - in which case nobody else is affected 4. the Wizard and his unit - in which case both are affected but as always: unless specifically stated otherwise. You may perhaps wonder what the difference is between 1 & 4. Well, if a unit is targeted, a character will only be affected as long as he remains within that unit. If the Wizard and his unit are targeted, both will remain affected, even if the Wizard leaves the unit. The description of the BoA states (High Elves AB p. 59): "Spells from the Lore of Light and the Lore of Life cast by a friendly Wizard that target a unit containing the Banner of Avelorn receive a +4 bonus to cast." However, Throne of Vines specifically states that it is cast on the Wizard, and therefore not the unit he is in. Indeed, if the unit would be the target, then everyone in it would be affected. But they are not, so it is not. Hence, the Wizard does not get the bonus when he casts spells on himself. Cool… So what we’re saying here is that, the spell rule is taking precedence over the magic item. As, per your (very good) 1-4 spell target summary, 1(banner) & 3(character) are essentially in conflict. Is there a precedence for this??
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 13, 2022 15:39:26 GMT
There is no conflict: the BoA only gives a bonus when a friendly spell targets the unit; if it does not target the unit, you do not get a bonus. If you target a character in the unit, you are not targeting the unit, but that character.
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Post by johngg on May 13, 2022 17:21:46 GMT
There is no conflict: the BoA only gives a bonus when a friendly spell targets the unit; if it does not target the unit, you do not get a bonus. If you target a character in the unit, you are not targeting the unit, but that character. Ok so you’re suggesting, in this case, that you disassociate the wizard from the unit. And that the (unit wide) effect of the Banner is ignored? Is there a precedence for this?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 13, 2022 22:23:23 GMT
Well, the spells themselves make that distinction and tell you exactly who or what is targeted - that is why I listed the options in the first place.
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Post by johngg on May 14, 2022 7:25:07 GMT
Well, the spells themselves make that distinction and tell you exactly who or what is targeted - that is why I listed the options in the first place. Yes, and the banner tells you what and how the unit is effected. Are we to ignore this? If so, why?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 14, 2022 7:50:40 GMT
We are not to ignore it. The Wizard is not the unit - it is a simple as that. The bonus comes into effect when the unit is targeted. If a spell targets only the Wizard in a combined unit, it is not targeting the unit, and the bonus does not come into effect. I am not sure where the problem is supposed to be.
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Post by johngg on May 14, 2022 7:51:59 GMT
We are not to ignore it. The Wizard is not the unit - it is a simple as that. The bonus comes into effect when the unit is targeted. If a spell targets only the Wizard in a combined unit, it is not targeting the unit, and the bonus does not come into effect. I am not sure where the problem is supposed to be. Ok we’re going round in circles now.
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Post by johngg on May 14, 2022 8:02:27 GMT
Ok, in a similar vein…
Death wizard targets an individual character in a high elf regiment carrying the Banner of the World Dragon.
Would the High Elf character get the ward save afforded by the banner??
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 14, 2022 8:44:31 GMT
Of course, because "All models in a unit that carries the Banner of the World Dragon get a 2+ ward save against all Wounds caused by spells etc."
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Post by johngg on May 14, 2022 8:49:51 GMT
Of course, because "All models in a unit that carries the Banner of the World Dragon get a 2+ ward save against all Wounds caused by spells etc." Of course, because the character is inside the unit and the unit is affected by the banner. The wizard is inside the unit with the banner of a Avelorn and so is therefore entitled to the rule the banner gives. You see where we’re headed with this….
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