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Post by wilsonthenarc on Jul 22, 2015 14:29:44 GMT
Frame of reference; from The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (the movie). The second half of the Battle at Helm’s Deep… the good guys charge out for one last valiant stand. At the same time, Gandalf and the Rohirrim arrive. They appear on a mountainous ridge. They start the charge, the sun glints off their armor blinding the enemy. There is a just-slightly-too-long pause as the Cavalry charge towards the Uruk-Hai… the tension builds, and the morale of the Uruk-Hair starts to falter. Go to this clip www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL9vUjm2mIEI know than Rohan does not equal Bretonnia, but the concept is right on for me. The battle was over before the first lance hit the first Orcish throat. To me, that’s a good charge.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Jul 22, 2015 14:40:35 GMT
There is an inherent weakness in taking an all cav army. Steadfast troops hold them up. The cav army needs to utterly destroy their foe, making steadfast difficult, or they need support in the form of infantry with ranks. I like this weakness. Why would anyone take peasants if knights could "break ranks" on their own. I'm all for making them more "scary" or "Killy" or "gallant" on the charge...but that's it.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Jul 22, 2015 15:55:35 GMT
You are using your Empire brain. The Brettonian fluff does not support many units of infantry. Peasant units are still needed to take building objectives and the like.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Jul 22, 2015 17:11:47 GMT
#1 use of Infantry (Peasants) in Bretonnian armies: "You there, street rat, gather your unit of Yeoman and lay down in that creek to see if it is dangerous terrain."
#2 most common use, as an actual make shift bridge to cross lava.
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Post by Baronthehumbled on Jul 24, 2015 0:04:24 GMT
Still thinking about the LANCE... thinking outside the box. How 'bout this: Momentous Through ChargeOn the turn when a unit of Bretonnian Knights charges a unit of infantry, if they win combat and the opposing unit holds, the Knights can take a Ld test and "break through" the unit. They "bounce" out of the unit and are placed facing the same direction on the back side of the opposing unit. If there is room for the unit to be placed. This represents a powerful charge and the mounted knights going right through the ranks and files. Game wise, it keeps the knights from getting bogged down or tarpitted. It also adds the tactical flex of getting behind the enemy lines. Just an idea. That's an awesome idea! It reminds me of the novel "Runefang" where the general of the Empire army (my favorite character btw) had the knights of Solland(with destriers rumored to be from Bretonnia) charge straight through a beastmen horde and form a iron wall on the other side while the infantry plowed forward into the beastmen's tattered lines and caught them between the two forces. I think they should do this with the lance formation while Kevin's horde formation is for maximum damage. It would be interesting to see multiple cavalry formations used for different tactics and rather fitting for the best cavalry army. (I'd suggest making a dangerous terrain test to balance the ability out though) #1 use of Infantry (Peasants) in Bretonnian armies: "You there, street rat, gather your unit of Yeoman and lay down in that creek to see if it is dangerous terrain." #2 most common use, as an actual make shift bridge to cross lava. Bah, the wretches can hardly even do that right. They constantly moan and cry just because you ride a horse across the "bridge". Makes me think we're too easy on them, a tax increase outta toughen them out a bit! In anycase, my own ideas for the draft are this: -Expensive holy relic that can be given to men-at-arms, bowmen or templars to give them ward save of 6+, rerollable break tests and rerollable hits against undead and chaos. It replaces the banner and can be lost by retreating. - I can't open the pdf so I don't know what templars can do but I think worshipping different gods would be neat. The Bretonnian knight of Morr in the novel "The Red Duke" would be a good example. Something like Morr worship for rerollable wounds on undead (compliments the holy relic) and Shallya worship to give nearby friendly units rerollable panic tests. -Giving your Lord a title like Master of the hunt (bonuses to yeomen and bowmen vs monsters) -Crusader (knights errants get additional D3 for charging) -Robber Baron (Men-at-arms use dirty tricks like caltrops to make enemies they fight lose -1 initiative) -Champion of the lists (knights of the realm get rerollable hits on the charge) -Black knight (questing knights become exiles and blessing causes fear instead of ward save, it can still be lost). Those are my thoughts on the subject.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Jul 24, 2015 0:11:28 GMT
A true Bretonnian Knight would rather have 17 peasants die than to have his horse so much as scratch a hoof.
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Post by Baronthehumbled on Jul 24, 2015 1:03:34 GMT
Well, the horse is easily worth 40 of them so... we're actually being generous. Once again Bretonnian virtue shines through!
Also, quick addition to my earlier ideas:
-Damsel/Prophetess general can given similar titles like the Bretonnian Lord.
-Seeress of the mists (Knights with blessing don't take dangerous terrain tests for terrain features.)
-Mistress of the abyss (can take a monster into battle)
-Enchantress of the humble (infantry with the blessing gain magical attacks)
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Post by vazalaar on Jul 27, 2015 16:04:58 GMT
I really like what you are doing!
I don't really like the Templar knights (mostly the name, as it doesn't fit imo with Bretonnia. What about changing it to Hedge knights, a Poor knight class?
I always found that foot knights of Bretonnia should have an Armed to da theef rule as Black Orcs and Blightkings have. I.e each round of combat the unit can chose to fight with great weapon or hw and shield. (not two hand weapons)
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Post by mottdon on Jul 27, 2015 17:21:54 GMT
Huh! Very cool idea with the Armed to da Teef rule. That makes sense. Knights were skilled in multiple combat forms. What if instead of the entire unit having this rule, only the unit champion was able to utilize this if he were to accept/issue a challenge? I would certainly make him much more formidable. Call it "Honoring the Call".
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Jul 27, 2015 18:11:36 GMT
I agree with the Templar thing now that you've mentioned it.
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Post by vazalaar on Jul 28, 2015 7:10:56 GMT
Templar makes me think about military orders. Afaik Bretonnia really didn't had military orders with a real hierachy. Templars is more a name that is associated with the Empire. Empire military orders that are devoted to one of the gods. That's why I think Hedge Knights would be a better name. Hedge Knight: A knight without land, a poor knight. A mercenary knight. I really like Mottdon's idea of giving only the champion the armed to da teef rule (when in challenge). Or you could just chose to give Errant/Realm knights the option to fight dismounted. It's also very nice that you use the End Times combined profiles, but are you planning to redo all the armybooks. That would be very great!
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Post by avatarofbugman on Jul 28, 2015 12:35:17 GMT
The only issue with the option to fight unmounted is the removal of the unit from the table and replacement. It can be hard to keep track of 'I thought they were on foot' 'no, the remounted'. Etc.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Jul 28, 2015 13:10:48 GMT
The only issue with the option to fight unmounted is the removal of the unit from the table and replacement. It can be hard to keep track of 'I thought they were on foot' 'no, the remounted'. Etc. Esp if this means they go from 25mm x 50mm bases to 20mm x 20mm bases. Square peg, round hole. It's a really cool idea, and I'd allow it for funsies!
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Post by vazalaar on Jul 28, 2015 13:16:34 GMT
Not in game, as that would be very impractical, but as a seperate unit choice as it is now with Templar knights. Main main problem is the name. Hedge Knight sounds better.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Jul 29, 2015 0:31:52 GMT
Ah, much better. How about, instead of stealing G.R.R. Martin's term we come up with our own? I put out 'Knights Corsair'. Reasoning is that Martin's terms closest real world equivalent is 'robber knights ' and corsair is a synonym of robber.
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