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Post by knoffles on Sept 3, 2022 16:38:30 GMT
This query relates to the no. 6 roll on the animosity table. With the initial pivot, is this only if a unit is within the front 45 degree charge arc, or front 180 degrees of a unit? Could the unit spin 180 degrees to face a unit behind them? Nearest visible unit is a bit vague. I’m also curious about if anyone knows how this is ‘normally’ played (if there is no consensus on how the rule works), as in generally accepted in the same way as multiple WE arrows. I’m thinking in perhaps tournament settings? Thanks
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Post by thegoat on Sept 3, 2022 17:39:24 GMT
I think an enemy unit needs to be in the front 90* of the orc unit to be visible.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 3, 2022 18:38:48 GMT
Front arc does not necessarily imply LOS and vice versa. They are two distinct and independent requirements. As BRB p. 10 specifies: "Line of sight determines what a model can 'see'" (ergo, what is visible). "For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace an unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the body (i.e. the head, torso, arms or legs) of the target (ibidem).
If you can draw LoS to a unit outside the forward arc, it is still visible. However, you cannot e.g. charge or shoot at it, because these rules specifically require the target to be in the forward arc. You definitely cannot draw LoS to a unit behind you.
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Post by thegoat on Sept 3, 2022 19:11:34 GMT
For what it is worth, later sections of the BRB imply that an enemy must be in your forward arc to be seen.
BRB pg.31 Magic missiles "... magic missiles do require the Wizard to be able to see his target, Accordingly, a Wizard can only cast a magic missile at a target that lies within his forward arc..."
BRB pg. 39 Check that the shooter can see the target "... to shoot at an enemy your warriors need to be able to see it. ... the target enemy unit must lie at least partially within the shooting model's forward arc..."
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 3, 2022 21:59:59 GMT
Ahem... However, you cannot e.g. charge or shoot at it, because these rules specifically require the target to be in the forward arc. Unless specifically stated otherwise, normal rules apply. The rules for unit facings (BRB p. 5) are not about what the model can see, but "about what the model can attack, as well as calculating which side of the model an enemy will be able to charge as the game goes on." The rules for LoS are about "what the model can see." [Italics mine] The rules for magic missiles do not support, but actually refute your position. All spells (unless specifically stated otherwise) require the target to be in the forward arc to attack it - but they do not need to see it. However, "magic missiles do require the Wizard to be able to see his target. Accordingly, a Wizard can only cast a magic missile at a target that lies within his forward arc and to which he can trace line of sight (just as if the wizard was firing a missile weapon)." Likewise (but not quite so obvious), the rules for shooting specify that being in the forward arc is not enough for that unit to be attacked, the attacker must be able to draw LoS to it.
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Post by thegoat on Sept 3, 2022 22:17:01 GMT
Likewise (but not quite so obvious), the rules for shooting specify that being in the forward arc is not enough for that unit to be attacked, the attacker must be able to draw LoS to it. The point is being able to draw line of sight is not enough to see a target. The target being in the forward arc is also a component. Both are required.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 4, 2022 7:53:46 GMT
Both are required for the purposes of shooting.
Once again: unless specifically stated otherwise, normal rules apply. The general rules (BRB p. 10) tell us that "Line of sight determines what a model can 'see'. [...]Line of sight literally represents your warriors' view of the enemy — they must be able to see their foe through, under or over the battlefield terrain, and other models (friendly or enemy). For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace an unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the body (i.e. the head, torso, arms or legs) of the target. Sometimes, all that will be visible of a model is a weapon, banner or other ornament he is carrying. In these cases, the model is not visible."
There is no requirement for forward arc, and the general rules for facings do not contain such a requirement either. In fact, the latter do not mention "seeing" (or somesuch) at all.
The rules for shooting specifically state otherwise. However, there is no shooting in the We'll show 'em special rule, and the enemy unit in the first part of the We'll show 'em special rule is not a target, although it can become one later, if and when a charge can be declared. Indeed, those rules imply that visibility does not require forward arc: "Pivot the unit on the spot to face the nearest visible unit" - precisely to bring it in the forward arc.
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pete
New Member
Posts: 29
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Post by pete on Sept 4, 2022 19:32:26 GMT
Interestingly, what we often call a march test is actually called an Enemy Sighted! test even though it doesn’t require line of sight. On another side note I’m pretty sure in 3rd edition Horse Archers had all round line of sight.
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Post by thegoat on Sept 4, 2022 20:14:47 GMT
Interestingly, what we often call a march test is actually called an Enemy Sighted! test even though it doesn’t require line of sight. On another side note I’m pretty sure in 3rd edition Horse Archers had all round line of sight. Don't all fast cavalry middle troops?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 4, 2022 20:45:07 GMT
Don't all fast cavalry middle troops? Not quite sure what you mean by that. Middle troops? What is that supposed to be? In 6th & 7th edition, Fast Cavalry had a 360 degree field of view (applicable to shooting). In 8th, that is no longer the case.
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Post by thegoat on Sept 4, 2022 21:23:54 GMT
Don't all fast cavalry middle troops? Not quite sure what you mean by that. Middle troops? What is that supposed to be? In 6th & 7th edition, Fast Cavalry had a 360 degree field of view (applicable to shooting). In 8th, that is no longer the case. Supposed to be "missile" troops. I'm on my phone and got auto corrected.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 4, 2022 21:27:18 GMT
If it was not so late, I might/should have guessed that.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 7, 2022 22:22:55 GMT
There was something nagging me in a corner of my mind, but I could not quite put my finger on it. Reading the rule again, I think I have found it. What I pointed out above, is still true in general, but thegoat seems to be correct on the issue at hand. The "We'll get 'em" special rule also states "If it is impossible for the unit to pivot to face the closest enemy, it will pivot towards it as far as it can, and will then move as far forward as it can while still keeping the enemy within its forward arc" [ Italics mine]. This would imply that the enemy unit must have been in the forward arc in the first place. This contradicts the BRB, but then AB>BRB, and so for the purposes of the "We'll get 'em" special rule" , the forward arc seems to be required too.
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