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Post by baaderthegreat on Nov 24, 2022 18:01:09 GMT
Concerning the "Size matters" special rule...
The Mangler Squig model includes night goblins models... but on the other hand, rule-wise there are no goblins "present".
How do you play it for the purpose of "Size matters"... does a nearby orc unit have to make a panic test if a Mangler Squig is destroyed?
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Post by Horace on Nov 24, 2022 20:31:19 GMT
I would personally consider it a goblin unit
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Post by sonofkurnos on Nov 24, 2022 21:15:50 GMT
I wouldn't say so, no...
- There is no profile for the night goblins included in the entry
- The model doesn't have the other general rules that night goblins have (animosity, fear elves, hatred dwarves)
- the name of the model doesn't reference the night goblins in anyway - you are buying a mangler squig...not a mangler squig with night goblin riders...
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Post by thegoat on Nov 24, 2022 21:42:53 GMT
I wouldn't say so, no... - the name of the model doesn't reference the night goblins in anyway - you are buying a mangler squig...not a mangler squig with night goblin riders... The unit entry doesn't have the word "goblin" in it. So, no it isn't a goblin unit. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 24, 2022 22:46:46 GMT
O&G p. 33 (Size matters): "For the purposes of this rule, a 'Goblin unit' is any unit that is either made up entirely of Goblins - of any kind - or that is entirely ridden by Goblins, or that has an entirely Goblin crew." Just like fluff, the actual model has no bearing on the rules. The model may have a Goblin, but as sonofkurnos observved, there is no entry for a Goblin crew, nor can it be used as a mount. Since none of the Size Matters requirements applies to the Mangler Squig, it does not count as a Goblin unit. |
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Post by baaderthegreat on Nov 25, 2022 7:34:28 GMT
I agree... there is a clear definition in the army book of what makes up a "Goblin unit", and the Mangler Squig clearly doesn't fulfill the requirements of that definition.
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Post by mrbaldrick on Dec 4, 2022 4:38:29 GMT
O&G p. 33 (Size matters): "For the purposes of this rule, a 'Goblin unit' is any unit that is either made up entirely of Goblins - of any kind - or that is entirely ridden by Goblins, or that has an entirely Goblin crew." Just like fluff, the actual model has no bearing on the rules. The model may have a Goblin, but as sonofkurnos observved, there is no entry for a Goblin crew, nor can it be used as a mount. Since none of the Size Matters requirements applies to the Mangler Squig, it does not count as a Goblin unit. I disagree. It's not just part of the fluff, the crew are specifically mentioned in the rules therefore they are part of the model. Yes they don't have stats but they are part of the rules making it a goblin unit. They're note like the gnoblars on the ogre characters, the Goblin crew are included in the rules for the model.  |
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Post by sonofkurnos on Dec 4, 2022 9:21:48 GMT
They are only mentioned in the fluff/description for an attack though - not in the rules
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 4, 2022 10:43:43 GMT
And no model existed for it for another year or 2 after the book was made.
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simon
Full Member
Posts: 142
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Post by simon on Dec 5, 2022 9:22:34 GMT
I would consider it a goblin unit.. because it is entirely ridden by goblins.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 5, 2022 10:10:11 GMT
Fluff has no bearing on the rules. It really simple: we turn to the army list entry of a Mangler Squig (O&G AB p. 110), which clearly shows that it is ridden by no one.
Besides: as so often, interpreting fluff as a rule renders itself absurd. For the purposes of the Size Matters special rule, a unit stops being counted as a Goblin unit, if the Goblins have been killed. According to the fluff with "Gone Crazy!" the Night Goblins are "either pulped to death or too busy holding on." In the first case, the unit would stop being a Goblin unit, but not in the second. Shall we now roll a die to determine whether they are killed or not? Shall the player whose turn it is decide, and shall the Goblins be dead in your opponent's turn, only to be miraculously revived in your own? Occam's Razor shaves again: fluff has no bearing on the rules.
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Post by sonofkurnos on Dec 5, 2022 10:40:33 GMT
I would consider it a goblin unit.. because it is entirely ridden by goblins. So... It's a ridden monster then? In which case I randomise between rider and monster when I shoot at it? If I hit the rider, what profile do I use to determine its toughness? What happens if I kill the mount, but not the crew? How many crew are there? |
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simon
Full Member
Posts: 142
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Post by simon on Dec 5, 2022 12:08:31 GMT
No it's not a ridden monster. It has troop type 'unique' and doesn't have a split profile. It is ridden by goblins - sure you can call that 'fluff' if you want but it is still true. A gyrocopter is also troop type unique with a combined profile - it is still a dwarf unit, ridden by a dwarf.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 5, 2022 12:24:49 GMT
If it were a combined profile, it would have values for WS & BS - which it does not. And Besides: as so often, interpreting fluff as a rule renders itself absurd. For the purposes of the Size Matters special rule, a unit stops being counted as a Goblin unit, if the Goblins have been killed. According to the fluff with "Gone Crazy!" the Night Goblins are "either pulped to death or too busy holding on." In the first case, the unit would stop being a Goblin unit, but not in the second. Shall we now roll a die to determine whether they are killed or not? Shall the player whose turn it is decide, and shall the Goblins be dead in your opponent's turn, only to be miraculously revived in your own? Occam's Razor shaves again: fluff has no bearing on the rules. |
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simon
Full Member
Posts: 142
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Post by simon on Dec 5, 2022 12:38:29 GMT
Sorry I don't mean a combined profile I mean a single profile.
I don't have my O&G book to hand. Where does it say that a unit stops being counted as a goblin unit if the goblins die? And do you have an example of this happening?
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