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Post by baaderthegreat on Dec 3, 2022 7:38:54 GMT
RAW, you simply cannot take both, just like you cannot take a lvl 1 Liche Priest with the Lore of Nehekhara as Hierophant together with a higher level Priest with another Lore. If you invoke a perceived RAI (the "even if") to take both, Khatep must be the Hierophant: you certainly do not get to choose. If it says: "X (for example, the BSB) cannot be the general", it's open to interpretation. I think you forgot a "not" there. Well, you could say that the ongoing debate in the forum shows otherwise. 
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 3, 2022 9:00:11 GMT
Well, you could say that the ongoing debate in the forum shows otherwise.  When I said it is similar to General/BSB and Leadership, I already expected the discussion to be in a similar vein, including the knack of reading things that are not there. Nope. Else, you're saying Arkhan can't be the Heirophant ever, as he has Death magic... Oh but he has a rule that says he can be! And it definitely says if Khatep is taken, he must be the Heirophant 👌 Exactly. Unless specifically stated otherwise, normal rules apply. The Immunity to Panic special rule specifically states that a model with this rule does not have to take Panic tests. However, as we have seen in a recent thread, it does not contain a specific exemption that units containing models with and without that rule do not need to test. Arkhan's rules specifically state that he "uses spells from the Lore of Death, even if he is your Army's Hierophant." The rules for Khatep specifically state "he must be your Army's Hierophant" - nothing more, nothing less. There is clearly no stated exemption that other Wizards can have a higher level. You could argue that it is somehow implied, but since it does not follow logically or grammatically from the written rule, that would be RAI, not RAW. Als already stated above: Choosing the Hierophant is part of building your Army List, and you must provide a legal list. The two rules conflict, but that conflict can be easily avoided by not building an AL with both Arkhan and Khatep. The two rules conflict, but it is a conflict of your choice, not a necessary one. It is similar to Detachments in the Watchtower scenario raised in another thread. You cannot claim AB>BRB to deploy a Regiment in the Watchtower, and then deploy its Detachments within 3" (unless the tower would be in or within 3" of the deployment zone). If you have two options, one which follows all the rules, and one of which creates an unnecessary conflict, you choose the first one. But as always, if you and your opponent agree, feel free to play it differently.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 3, 2022 15:14:44 GMT
There are some relevant FAQ on the matter (Tomb Kings) Official Update Version 1.4, p.1), one confirming (superfluously - or perhaps not, as the discussion may have shown) that choosing the Hierophant is part of building the AL:
and one prohibiting the creation of unnecessary conflicts:
In the Army List, all characters eligible to be Hierophant are identified by the phrase "X may ("must" in the case of Khatep) be your army's Hierophant, as detailed on page 28," i.e. the page that details the requirements of the Hierophant. Settra is only a lvl 1 Wizard. Hence, if you want him to be the Hierophant, you cannot have any other Wizard with a higher level.
Of course, Arkhan is identified here too as a Level 4 Wizard. So, one could speculate that the writer forgot the extra level from the Liber Mortis, or at least its effects on the Hierophant rule. But that would be pure speculation: RAI, not RAW.
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Post by vulcan on Dec 4, 2022 1:42:36 GMT
Of course, Arkhan is identified here too as a Level 4 Wizard. So, one could speculate that the writer forgot the extra level from the Liber Mortis, or at least its effects on the Hierophant rule. But that would be pure speculation: RAI, not RAW. Or perhaps the writers didn't consider a buff from a magic item to be important to determining who the highest level wizard is for the Hierophant rule. Without talking to the writer, we don't know for sure, but given the existence of the other L4 character who MUST be the Hierophant, I'd bet it's the case. Just my opinion, of course, YMMV.
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Post by thegoat on Dec 4, 2022 2:50:13 GMT
Of course, Arkhan is identified here too as a Level 4 Wizard. So, one could speculate that the writer forgot the extra level from the Liber Mortis, or at least its effects on the Hierophant rule. But that would be pure speculation: RAI, not RAW. Or perhaps the writers didn't consider a buff from a magic item to be important to determining who the highest level wizard is for the Hierophant rule. Without talking to the writer, we don't know for sure, but given the existence of the other L4 character who MUST be the Hierophant, I'd bet it's the case. Just my opinion, of course, YMMV. I think Arkhan's +1 magic level takes precedence for choosing the Hierophant. But more so, I think as long as you discuss it with your opponent and come to an understanding, play it however you please.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 4, 2022 9:41:37 GMT
Of course, Arkhan is identified here too as a Level 4 Wizard. So, one could speculate that the writer forgot the extra level from the Liber Mortis, or at least its effects on the Hierophant rule. But that would be pure speculation: RAI, not RAW. Or perhaps the writers didn't consider a buff from a magic item to be important to determining who the highest level wizard is for the Hierophant rule. Without talking to the writer, we don't know for sure, but given the existence of the other L4 character who MUST be the Hierophant, I'd bet it's the case. Just my opinion, of course, YMMV. Perhaps, but if so, he forgot to specify that it was to be discounted for the Hierophant rule.
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Post by vulcan on Dec 6, 2022 1:44:32 GMT
Or perhaps the writers didn't consider a buff from a magic item to be important to determining who the highest level wizard is for the Hierophant rule. Without talking to the writer, we don't know for sure, but given the existence of the other L4 character who MUST be the Hierophant, I'd bet it's the case. Just my opinion, of course, YMMV. Perhaps, but if so, he forgot to specify that it was to be discounted for the Hierophant rule. Oh, yes, some sort of explicit exception should have been made somewhere, pointing out that a magic item buff did not count to the Hierophant rule. Or perhaps he considered the statement "This model must be Hierophant no matter what" to be explicit enough. But we ARE talking about GW, who are not known for having tightly written rules...
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Post by grandmasterwang on Dec 7, 2022 13:31:08 GMT
I'm all for them not being able to be in the same army together.
Raw not broken and makes perfect lore sense given Khatep's loyalty to Settra and Arkhan's to Nagash.
Both have massive egos and would insist on being Hierophant.
Khatep has to be Hierophant RAW and Arkhan can F right off with his level 5.
One of the rare instances of GW getting it absolutely right imo 😀
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Post by rein0s on Feb 5, 2023 2:56:33 GMT
Where does it say you cannot take both? If it says that somewhere, then OK. Until then: RAW, Khatep must be the Heirophant 👌 The army you select must comply with all rules. RAW, Character with highest wizard level must be Heirophant and that is Arkhan. So it is not possible to include both of them in the same army.  Khatep must be the Hierophant because Arkhan is a lvl 4 wizard until you reveal his "Liber Mortis" (+1 wizard lvl) in the choosing spells phase. Since in 8th edition the magic items can be keeped in secret until you used, this means than you can deploy Khatep and Arkhan at same time, choose your Hierophant and then select your spells (then will be revealed the Arkhan lvl 5, not before)  .
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Post by thegoat on Feb 5, 2023 3:11:45 GMT
The army you select must comply with all rules. RAW, Character with highest wizard level must be Heirophant and that is Arkhan. So it is not possible to include both of them in the same army.  Khatep must be the Hierophant because Arkhan is a lvl 4 wizard until you reveal his "Liber Mortis" (+1 wizard lvl) in the choosing spells phase. Since in 8th edition the magic items can be keeped in secret until you used, this means than you can deploy Khatep and Arkhan at same time, choose your Hierophant and then select your spells (then will be revealed the Arkhan lvl 5, not before)  . You are still required to abide by all rules of the game at all times. Just because your opponent is unaware you violated a rule doesn't make it okay. Also magic items must be revealed when they have an effect on the game. ie. In this example when choosing the Hierophant.
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Post by vulcan on Feb 5, 2023 16:14:48 GMT
Now here's the fun part. Arkhan is Heirophant because of the Liber Mortis, and Khatep is sidelined.
What happens if the Liber Mortis gets destroyed and reduces Arkhan to the same level as Khatep. Does Khatep's 'must be Hierophant' rule take effect now?
I still think the simple answer is they're both L4, and the '+1 magic item' was never intended to count toward the Hierophant rule. But as I've said before, YMMV.
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Post by rein0s on Feb 5, 2023 18:11:13 GMT
 Khatep must be the Hierophant because Arkhan is a lvl 4 wizard until you reveal his "Liber Mortis" (+1 wizard lvl) in the choosing spells phase. Since in 8th edition the magic items can be keeped in secret until you used, this means than you can deploy Khatep and Arkhan at same time, choose your Hierophant and then select your spells (then will be revealed the Arkhan lvl 5, not before)  . You are still required to abide by all rules of the game at all times. Just because your opponent is unaware you violated a rule doesn't make it okay. Also magic items must be revealed when they have an effect on the game. ie. In this example when choosing the Hierophant. It's a time sequence. Obviously you should explain to the rival player. But the Hierophant must be selected in the precise moment of models deployment instead the Liber Mortis that is revealed later in the choosing spells phase (not earlier). So, there is no rule violation in that precise moment. Both wizard are the same 4 level and the player must choose Khatep as Hierophant due to his special rule. In other way, you can choose not to use the Liber Mortis in all the game (spoiler alert: nobody plays this way), in that case Arkhan still is lvl 4 until you reveal the object. It means that Arkhan becomes a lvl 5 wizard only when Liber Mortis is revealed.
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Post by thegoat on Feb 5, 2023 18:36:39 GMT
You are still required to abide by all rules of the game at all times. Just because your opponent is unaware you violated a rule doesn't make it okay. Also magic items must be revealed when they have an effect on the game. ie. In this example when choosing the Hierophant. It's a time sequence. Obviously you should explain to the rival player. But the Hierophant must be selected in the precise moment of models deployment instead the Liber Mortis that is revealed later in the choosing spells phase (not earlier). So, there is no rule violation in that precise moment. Both wizard are the same 4 level and the player must choose Khatep as Hierophant due to his special rule. In other way, you can choose not to use the Liber Mortis in all the game (spoiler alert: nobody plays this way), in that case Arkhan still is lvl 4 until you reveal the object. It means that Arkhan becomes a lvl 5 wizard only when Liber Mortis is revealed. That is some impressive rules lawyering. But I disagree 100%. You cannot choose when to trigger the Liber Mortis by revealing it in the spell choosing step. It is always in effect even before the model is deployed to the table.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 5, 2023 23:15:37 GMT
What thegoat says. The Liber Mortis special rule specifically states: "Whilst Arkhan the Black has the Liber Mortis his Wizard level is increased to 5." He has the Liber Mortis by default - he has it at every stage, before and during the game, until it is effectively destroyed.
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Post by rein0s on Feb 5, 2023 23:48:04 GMT
NIGHTBRINGER has answer pretty well with basic/advanced rules comparision. Sorry thegoat but I disagree 101% with you.
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