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Post by thegoat on Feb 6, 2023 0:50:57 GMT
NIGHTBRINGER has answer pretty well with basic/advanced rules comparision. Except in this case the two rules don't conflict, so the basic/advanced doesn't apply. Sorry thegoat but I disagree 101% with you. It is your prerogative, as someone having a discussion on the Internet, to maintain your incorrect opinion.  |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Feb 6, 2023 6:13:11 GMT
It is your prerogative, as someone having a discussion on the Internet, to maintain your incorrect opinion. Don't worry, we won't hold your incorrect opinion against you!  |
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Post by johngg on Feb 6, 2023 11:36:21 GMT
It is your prerogative, as someone having a discussion on the Internet, to maintain your incorrect opinion Don't worry, we won't hold your incorrect opinion against you! Childish, maybe. Unnecessary, certainly. You may not share rein0s opinion, you may even be opposed to it. But don't belittle it. Personally while I don't quite follow his train of thought I, like vulcan think the simplest and easiest and in my mind, most logical approach is that Arkhan is, for these intents and purposes a Lvl4 wizard. |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Feb 6, 2023 17:59:52 GMT
It is your prerogative, as someone having a discussion on the Internet, to maintain your incorrect opinion Don't worry, we won't hold your incorrect opinion against you! Childish, maybe. Unnecessary, certainly. You may not share rein0s opinion, you may even be opposed to it. But don't belittle it. Personally while I don't quite follow his train of thought I, like vulcan think the simplest and easiest and in my mind, most logical approach is that Arkhan is, for these intents and purposes a Lvl4 wizard. I was quoting thegoat (I can see now that I missed erasing some of the quote within a quote). I am in full agreement with rein0s stance on the topic. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 7, 2023 9:02:44 GMT
Personally while I don't quite follow his train of thought I, like vulcan think the simplest and easiest and in my mind, most logical approach is that Arkhan is, for these intents and purposes a Lvl4 wizard. That is only the case, however, if you are dead set on including both characters in the same Army List. To recap: The Hierophant has two requirements - unless, of course, specifically stated otherwise. 1. Have the highest Wizard level 2. Use the Lore of Nehekhara. As I have pointed out before, There are some relevant FAQ on the matter (Tomb Kings) Official Update Version 1.4, p.1), one confirming (superfluously - or perhaps not, as the discussion may have shown) that choosing the Hierophant is part of building the AL: and one prohibiting the creation of unnecessary conflicts: The second FAQ specifically [edit:and one should think more than superfluously, but clearly not] forbids you to create an illegal army list in an attempt to force an artificial conflict with requirement 2. The same, self-evidently, applies in the case of requirement 1. The rules for Khatep specifically state "he must be your Army's Hierophant" - nothing more, nothing less. There is clearly no stated exemption that other Wizards can have a higher level. Hence, Khatep needs to be the Wizard with the highest level. Now, Arkhan's rules do have a stated exemption to requirement 2, but not 1. But is Arkan a lvl 4 or 5 Wizard? I myself have pointed out that in the ALE, under Magic, he is listed as a level 4. Rather than speculate about a possible oversight, [we can come to the sinple conclusion that,] as with other Wizards, this entry just specifies the basic level, without any upgrades or equipment. A Lich High Priest is listed here as a lvl 3, but can, of course, be upgraded to a lvl 4. Likewise, equipment may affect magic status of a character, for instance, by giving him the Wizard's Hat. What counts "for these intents and purposes" is the actual Wizard level, not the basic one. And the Liber Mortis special rule specifically states: "Whilst Arkhan the Black has the Liber Mortis his Wizard level is increased to 5." He has the Liber Mortis by default in his equipment - he has it at every stage, before and during the game, unless and until it is effectively destroyed. That said, and as always: if you and your opponent agree, feel free to play it differently. |
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Post by DiscoQing on Feb 7, 2023 10:40:23 GMT
That said, and as always: if you and your opponent agree, feel free to play it differently. I was thinking this. I mean, it really makes little difference, imo - especially when talking about TK! There's more to be said about *how* people move their models in the movement phase, than which special character gets to lead my awful army 🤣 |
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Post by johngg on Feb 7, 2023 12:33:40 GMT
Childish, maybe. Unnecessary, certainly. You may not share rein0s opinion, you may even be opposed to it. But don't belittle it. Personally while I don't quite follow his train of thought I, like vulcan think the simplest and easiest and in my mind, most logical approach is that Arkhan is, for these intents and purposes a Lvl4 wizard. I was quoting thegoat (I can see now that I missed erasing some of the quote within a quote). I am in full agreement with rein0s stance on the topic. in which case, my apologies! |
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Post by johngg on Feb 7, 2023 12:35:32 GMT
Personally while I don't quite follow his train of thought I, like vulcan think the simplest and easiest and in my mind, most logical approach is that Arkhan is, for these intents and purposes a Lvl4 wizard. That is only the case, however, if you are dead set on including both characters in the same Army List. To recap: The Hierophant has two requirements - unless, of course, specifically stated otherwise. 1. Have the highest Wizard level 2. Use the Lore of Nehekhara. As I have pointed out before, There are some relevant FAQ on the matter (Tomb Kings) Official Update Version 1.4, p.1), one confirming (superfluously - or perhaps not, as the discussion may have shown) that choosing the Hierophant is part of building the AL: and one prohibiting the creation of unnecessary conflicts: The second FAQ specifically forbids you to create an illegal army list in an attempt to force an artificial conflict with requirement number 2. The same, self-evidently, applies in the case of requirement 1. The rules for Khatep specifically state "he must be your Army's Hierophant" - nothing more, nothing less. There is clearly no stated exemption that other Wizards can have a higher level. Hence, Khatep needs to be the Wizard with the highest level. Now, Arkhan's rules do have a stated exemption to requirement 2, but not 1. But is Arkan a lvl 4 or 5 Wizard? Now, I myself have pointed out that in the ALE, under Magic, he is listed as a level 4. Rather than speculate about a possible oversight, as with other Wizards, this entry just specifies the basic level, without any upgrades or equipment. A Lich High Priest is listed as a lvl 3, but can, of course, be upgraded to a lvl 4. Likewise, equipment may affect magic status of a character, for instance, by giving him the Wizard's Hat. What counts for these intents and purposes is the actual level, not the basic one. And the Liber Mortis special rule specifically states: "Whilst Arkhan the Black has the Liber Mortis his Wizard level is increased to 5." He has the Liber Mortis by default in his equipment - he has it at every stage, before and during the game, unless and until it is effectively destroyed. That said, and as always: if you and your opponent agree, feel free to play it differently. with this, I fully agree. |
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Post by KevinC on Feb 9, 2023 14:14:30 GMT
I'm not understanding the opposing argument. Khatep rules state he must be the army Hierophant. There is nothing that can override that. If your army includes everyone single unit from every army in the the WFB game, Khatep will still be the army Hierophant and you cannot nominate another one.
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Post by thegoat on Feb 9, 2023 14:45:32 GMT
I'm not understanding the opposing argument. Khatep rules state he must be the army Hierophant. There is nothing that can override that. If your army includes everyone single unit from every army in the the WFB game, Khatep will still be the army Hierophant and you cannot nominate another one. Khatep must be the army Hierophant. So you must choose your army such that he may be selected as the army Hierophant. That means don't include another candidate with a higher magic level, ie. Arkhan. |
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Post by johngg on Feb 9, 2023 15:24:07 GMT
Khatep must be the army Hierophant. So you must choose your army such that he may be selected as the army Hierophant. That means don't include another candidate with a higher magic level, ie. Arkhan. That's not what the rule says. You have, for some reason, added a clarification that does not exist. |
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Post by thegoat on Feb 9, 2023 15:59:15 GMT
Khatep must be the army Hierophant. So you must choose your army such that he may be selected as the army Hierophant. That means don't include another candidate with a higher magic level, ie. Arkhan. That's not what the rule says. You have, for some reason, added a clarification that does not exist. The clarification is from Tomb Kings army book page 28, section "The Hierophant". |
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Post by vulcan on Feb 9, 2023 16:26:24 GMT
I'm not understanding the opposing argument. Khatep rules state he must be the army Hierophant. There is nothing that can override that. If your army includes everyone single unit from every army in the the WFB game, Khatep will still be the army Hierophant and you cannot nominate another one. Khatep must be the army Hierophant. So you must choose your army such that he may be selected as the army Hierophant. That means don't include another candidate with a higher magic level, ie. Arkhan. Except Arkhan is ALSO a L4 caster, just one with a magic item that gives him a boost. We can argue it 'round and 'round for years and never come to an agreement as to what GW's poorly-worded rules ACTUALLY meant. |
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Post by thegoat on Feb 9, 2023 16:34:07 GMT
We can argue it 'round and 'round for years and never come to an agreement as to what GW's poorly-worded rules ACTUALLY meant. We are in agreement! |
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Post by johngg on Feb 9, 2023 17:09:33 GMT
That's not what the rule says. You have, for some reason, added a clarification that does not exist. The clarification is from Tomb Kings army book page 28, section "The Hierophant". Following your train of thought, Arkhan could NEVER be the Hierophant if he's useing the Lore of Death. [Warhammer Armies: Tomb Kings pp28, The Heirophant, second para " The Hierophant must use the Lore of Nehekhara"] Making this whole thread redundant. However, Arkhan's rule IS clarified ",even if he is your army's Hierophant" So, as there is no clarification to Khatep's Grand Hierophant of Khemri rule, we interpret it no different than as is written. |
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