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Post by IbnSeesAll on Dec 2, 2022 11:32:17 GMT
Hi Everyone,
Does Arkhan the Black have to be the hierophant when you take him in a Tomb King's Army?
He will have the highest wizard level - given he's a level 5 and his rules say he 'uses spells from the Lore of Death even if he is your army's Hierophant'.
Presumably that also means he can't be taken with Grand Hierophant Khatep as Arkhan has a higher wizard level but Khatep must be the hierophant?
Thanks
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 2, 2022 12:33:52 GMT
Well, it is similar to the General, BSB and highest leadership. Choosing the Hierophant is part of building your Army List, and you must provide a legal list. The two rules conflict, but that conflict can be easily avoided by not building an AL with both Arkhan and Khatep. However, others may disagree on RAI grounds, just like they do with the General-BSB issue (for which they have at least the unofficial support of Mat Ward.)
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Post by baaderthegreat on Dec 2, 2022 13:08:08 GMT
It depends on the wording, doesn't it? If it says: "X (for example, the BSB) cannot be the general", it's open to interpretation.
But if it says "The BSB cannot be the general, even if the BSB has the highest leadership", the sentence describes a situation where the BSB *can* be the army's model with the highest leadership (and still won't be the general).
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 2, 2022 13:30:51 GMT
It's how Bret players can take a Bret lord on a Hippogryph (not a strong choice).
As Bret Lords have the Highest Ld, if they take the Virtue of Ideal, it gives some stat boosts and a debuff, but crucially the virtue means you cannot be the General 😍
I'd play it as you get to choose which one is the heirophant, however hitting more caveats Khatep should be the heirophant, as it says he must be it.
Arkhan says "if".
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Post by IbnSeesAll on Dec 2, 2022 13:34:59 GMT
Thanks All,
So if Arkhan is taken without Khatep he must be the hierophant (he will have the highest wizard level).
If they are both taken it can be argued either way, and it can also be argued that they can't both be taken in the same army.
Have I understood that correctly?
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 2, 2022 13:43:55 GMT
Arkhan the Black is a Level 4 Wizard, his item gives him an extra level.
Even if Khatep was a Level 1, simply, as per the rules: Khatep must be the Heirophant (Grand Heirophant of Khemri).
This special character's rule overrides the usual caveats for choosing the Heirophant.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 2, 2022 14:48:31 GMT
RAW, you simply cannot take both, just like you cannot take a lvl 1 Liche Priest with the Lore of Nehekhara as Hierophant together with a higher level Priest with another Lore. If you invoke a perceived RAI (the "even if") to take both, Khatep must be the Hierophant: you certainly do not get to choose. If it says: "X (for example, the BSB) cannot be the general", it's open to interpretation. I think you forgot a "not" there. |
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 2, 2022 18:35:20 GMT
Where does it say you cannot take both?
If it says that somewhere, then OK.
Until then: RAW, Khatep must be the Heirophant 👌
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Post by thegoat on Dec 2, 2022 20:18:34 GMT
Where does it say you cannot take both? If it says that somewhere, then OK. Until then: RAW, Khatep must be the Heirophant 👌 The army you select must comply with all rules. RAW, Character with highest wizard level must be Heirophant and that is Arkhan. So it is not possible to include both of them in the same army. |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Dec 2, 2022 21:10:58 GMT
Even if Khatep was a Level 1, simply, as per the rules: Khatep must be the Heirophant ( Grand Heirophant of Khemri). This special character's rule overrides the usual caveats for choosing the Heirophant. Exactly this. It's actually covered in the BRB (page 11): " BASIC VERSUS ADVANCED
Where rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take Panic test under certain situations. If, however, that model has a rule that makes it immune to Panic, then it does not test for Panic — the advanced rule takes precedence." In this case the rules for the selection of a Hierophant (as part of the TK army special rules section) is clearly the basic rule, and Khatep's special character rule (which applies to a specific model) is the advanced one. Consequently, The Grand Hierophant of Khemri special rule, " If you take Grand Hierophant Khatep, he must be your army's Hierophant", overrules the wizard level requirement for Hierophant selection. |
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Post by Horace on Dec 2, 2022 21:37:33 GMT
I would personally say Arkhan must be hierophant unless Khatep is there, then he must be, as per the above.
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 2, 2022 23:10:14 GMT
RAW, Character with highest wizard level must be Heirophant and that is Arkhan. So it is not possible to include both of them in the same army. Arkhan the Black is a Level 4 Wizard, (as per his rules). As per the rules for Khatep, he must be the Heirophant 👍 |
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Post by thegoat on Dec 2, 2022 23:24:09 GMT
RAW, Character with highest wizard level must be Heirophant and that is Arkhan. So it is not possible to include both of them in the same army. Arkhan the Black is a Level 4 Wizard, (as per his rules). Arkhan is a level 4+1 wizard. Khatep is a level 4 wizard. (4+1) > 4 As per the rules for Khatep, he must be the Heirophant 👍 Then it is a violation of the rules to take him in the same army as Arkhan. |
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 2, 2022 23:51:55 GMT
Nope.
Else, you're saying Arkhan can't be the Heirophant ever, as he has Death magic...
Oh but he has a rule that says he can be!
And it definitely says if Khatep is taken, he must be the Heirophant 👌
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Post by thegoat on Dec 3, 2022 1:14:22 GMT
Yes, Khatep must be the Heirophant. If you include him, it is up to you to build your army in such a way that he qualifies to be the Heirophant.
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