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Post by IbnSeesAll on Jan 25, 2023 9:47:43 GMT
Just want to check that I've interpreted this rule correctly:
A cannon hits and bounces through a unit of ogres - one of which has been reduced to one Wound. The cannon successfully wounds the first ogre and rolls a 2 for the Multiple Wounds, does this kill the ogre and reduce another ogre down to 2 wounds?
It doesn't seem right that that should be happen, but I think that's correct. Presumably then it would be able to roll to wound the next rank of the unit as it has caused a casualty, and if the second roll was also a 2 then it could continue into a third rank?
Thanks in advance.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 25, 2023 10:35:09 GMT
I should point to a discussion some years ago in connection with the cannon rules. BRB p. 113: "If the cannonball bounces into a monstrous infantry/beast/cavalry or monster, that model suffers a hit. However, if the monster or monstrous infantry/beast/cavalry model is not slain, the sheer bulk of the creature robs the cannonball of all momentum and the shot travels no further." What happens if the unit in question already has a Wound, and the cannon inflicts 2 MW on the first 3W model? Some have argued that, based on the rule quoted in my previous post, you do not add the already existing Wound to determine whether the cannonball travels further. You only add that Wound after all other Wounds have been determined. That would lead to the paradoxon that the first model is both not slain and slain. Since I do not think Warhammer models behave like Schrödinger's cat, I would advise to apply existing Wounds to the first model hit. |
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Post by thegoat on Jan 25, 2023 22:52:14 GMT
A cannon hits and bounces through a unit of ogres - one of which has been reduced to one Wound. The cannon successfully wounds the first ogre and rolls a 2 for the Multiple Wounds, does this kill the ogre and reduce another ogre down to 2 wounds? Does the cannon ball kill the (rank and file) ogre with one remaining wound? Yes. Does the excess wound get applied to a second model? No. Does the cannon ball continue into a subsequent rank? Yes. |
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Post by rahotep75 on Jan 25, 2023 23:14:17 GMT
A cannon hits and bounces through a unit of ogres - one of which has been reduced to one Wound. The cannon successfully wounds the first ogre and rolls a 2 for the Multiple Wounds, does this kill the ogre and reduce another ogre down to 2 wounds? Does the cannon ball kill the (rank and file) ogre with one remaining wound? Yes. Does the excess wound get applied to a second model? No. Does the cannon ball continue into a subsequent rank? Yes. Per the rule book, spare wounds are noted on the unit, not assigned to specific models. So, you have a unit of Ogres with 1 or 2 spare wounds remaining. You don’t have a unit of ogres, with one specific ogre who has 1 or 2 wounds left. After determining how many Ogres are eligible to be hit by the cannonball, you would start rolling to wound, one at a time, determining how many wounds are done each time, but capping the roll at 3, since that’s how many wounds an Ogre has. If that wound roll brings the total number of wounds to 3 or more, you then remove an ogre and continue to roll to wound and determine how many wounds are done, until you have attempted to wound all eligible models. You would continue to not any spare wound as you go. |
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Post by thegoat on Jan 26, 2023 0:01:23 GMT
Does the cannon ball kill the (rank and file) ogre with one remaining wound? Yes. Does the excess wound get applied to a second model? No. Does the cannon ball continue into a subsequent rank? Yes. Per the rule book, spare wounds are noted on the unit, not assigned to specific models. So, you have a unit of Ogres with 1 or 2 spare wounds remaining. You don’t have a unit of ogres, with one specific ogre who has 1 or 2 wounds left. Yup, for sure. Didn't mean to imply otherwise. I usually just think of it as the wounded guy steping up and taking the hit. After determining how many Ogres are eligible to be hit by the cannonball, you would start rolling to wound, one at a time, determining how many wounds are done each time, but capping the roll at 3, since that’s how many wounds an Ogre has. If that wound roll brings the total number of wounds to 3 or more, you then remove an ogre and continue to roll to wound and determine how many wounds are done, until you have attempted to wound all eligible models. You would continue to not any spare wound as you go. If an ogre doesn't die then you stop rolling right then and there. The cannon ball stops and no further ogres are hit. What does "You would continue to not any spare wound as you go." mean? |
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Post by rahotep75 on Jan 26, 2023 0:35:47 GMT
Continue to *note*.
And yes, if you failed to kill an ogre then it would stop, that’s why I said “eligible to be wounded”.
In the example provided, a cannonball that hit an ogre unit with 2 wounds on it, assuming successful to-wound rolls, would kill 1 ogre, no matter the wound roll for the first. Any roll of more than 1 wounds would maintain spare wounds on the unit, making subsequent ogres more easy to kill.
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Post by thegoat on Jan 26, 2023 1:09:14 GMT
Any roll of more than 1 wounds would maintain spare wounds on the unit, making subsequent ogres more easy to kill. Nope. BRB pg. 45 section "Hits Inflicting Multiple Wounds" A model cannot suffer more wounds then it has on its profile. Should the model do so, it dies instantly and any excess wounds are wasted. |
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Post by rahotep75 on Jan 26, 2023 2:08:42 GMT
Wounds on profile is not the same as remaining wounds.
If the cannonball hits and wounds the first ogre and does 3 or more wounds, it kills an ogre outright and the unit (in this example) still has 2 spare wounds on it. If it does 2 wounds, it kills an ogre, and the unit has 1 spare wound on it. This method continues until all the eligible models have been hit and wounded or the cannon fails to kill an ogre.
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Post by thegoat on Jan 26, 2023 2:17:42 GMT
Do you have a rulebook or FAQ reference to support "Wounds on profile is not the same as remaining wounds."?
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Post by rahotep75 on Jan 26, 2023 2:42:12 GMT
Page 52 – Calculate Combat Result, Wounds Inflicted.
Change “[...]counts as having scored all the slain model’s
remaining Wounds.” to “[...]score the same amount of
Wounds as the slain model has on its profile.” in the last
paragraph.
This change from the FAQ indicates they are different things.
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Post by thegoat on Jan 26, 2023 2:48:47 GMT
Page 52 – Calculate Combat Result, Wounds Inflicted. Change “[...]counts as having scored all the slain model’s remaining Wounds.” to “[...]score the same amount of Wounds as the slain model has on its profile.” in the last paragraph. This change from the FAQ indicates they are different things. Not how I read it. |
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Post by rahotep75 on Jan 26, 2023 3:17:19 GMT
Well, it doesn’t really matter how you read it, anyway, since no model has wounds allocated to it. Just the unit.
Every unit in Warhammer is a pool of wounds. Every time that unit suffers wounds equivalent to a multiple of the wounds characteristic on its profile, the owner removes a model. For the majority of the units in the game, this isn’t much of an issue, since they are single wound models.
The multi-wound units may seem to make it more complicated, but as long as you remember that the unit has a pool of wounds, and not individual models with wounds, it gets easier.
Normal cannons vs monstrous units, and by extension bolt throwers, add even more complexity due to the requirement of killing each single model prior to the next viable target. Still, as long as you remember that there is a pool of wounds, it’s easy to reconcile.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 26, 2023 10:37:53 GMT
Wounds on the profile are self-evidently the Wounds on the profile and therefore fixed. Remaining Wounds are the Wounds on the profile minus any losses. The Multi-Wound rules work fine, if the unit is targeted, but can run into problems, if individual models are targeted, like in the case of cannon, but also champions.
BRB p. 45: "If a unit of creatures with more than 1 Wound on their profile is hit by a weapon that causes multiple wounds, determine how many wounds are caused on each model individually (remember that each model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on its profile). Add up all wounds caused on the unit and then remove the appropriate number of models, noting any spare wounds on the unit."
As pointed out in my earlier post, applying this to the cannon
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Post by IbnSeesAll on Jan 26, 2023 13:24:41 GMT
Wounds on the profile are self-evidently the Wounds on the profile and therefore fixed. Remaining Wounds are the Wounds on the profile minus any losses. The Multi-Wound rules work fine, if the unit is targeted, but can run into problems, if individual models are targeted, like in the case of cannon, but also champions. BRB p. 45: "If a unit of creatures with more than 1 Wound on their profile is hit by a weapon that causes multiple wounds, determine how many wounds are caused on each model individually (remember that each model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on its profile). Add up all wounds caused on the unit and then remove the appropriate number of models, noting any spare wounds on the unit." As pointed out in my earlier post, applying this to the cannon So if the first hit from the cannon was on the unit champion (who fails/doesn't get a Look Out Sir!) and the multiple-wound roll is a 2 what should happen? 1: The champion goes down to 1 Wound, there remains another Ogre on 1 Wound and the cannon ball stops or; 2: The champion is killed, but excess wounds don't transfer from the champion to the unit so no other Ogres are wounded and the cannonball continues or; 3: The champion is killed with the one additional wound left on the unit and the cannonball continues? |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 26, 2023 16:10:10 GMT
Option 2. Since "wounds inflicted on the unit can overflow onto the champion, but wounds inflicted on the champion cannot overflow onto the unit" (BRB p. 93), this rules out option 1 and 3.
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