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Post by strutsagget on Aug 3, 2017 7:12:23 GMT
Archers are always good. Personally I do not use spearmen but many people use them and magic them up. ASF in four ranks and mindrazor will kill absolutely everything! There are no archers in IoB though. Think I got 10 sisters of avalorn, 2 bolt throwers, and a chariot with elven steed lying some where too and of course some eagles.
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Post by knoffles on Aug 3, 2017 7:59:47 GMT
High elves are quite lucky, in so far as there are a number of quite good options available. Each of their special option infantry units are fantastic. Swordmasters are often thought of as the worst of the 3 but compared to many other armies, they are still really good and are my favourite of the three (if only as they are probably the least used). They tend to be run in two ways (at least where I play), small units of 7 or 8 that are used to attack the flanks or larger units. They are fragile (as all elves) but more so than the other 2 units as they don't have the high save vs missile fire (like white lions) or the ward save.
The Elliyon Reavers are some of the best/most flexible fast cav in the game. Bows and/or spears for them are both viable - all depends on the points you have and how you like to use them. A musician is a useful upgrade (as with most fast cav). I always have 1 if not 2 units in my high elf army. I prefer them to Great eagles if only because they are core choices rather than rare.
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Post by Horace on Aug 3, 2017 9:38:55 GMT
So I got an original IoB when buying some ebay wood elves. How close do I get with a good High elves army with two IoB (spire of dawn)? Allready have two bolt throwers. Never played high elves so dont know if the units in are good ones It depends what you want in your final army It gives you a very good core force with some nice models. You can use one of the Griffons to make a second Phoenix from that kit, then I mounted the extra Prince on a spare horsey I had kicking around
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Post by strutsagget on Aug 3, 2017 11:46:43 GMT
So I got an original IoB when buying some ebay wood elves. How close do I get with a good High elves army with two IoB (spire of dawn)? Allready have two bolt throwers. Never played high elves so dont know if the units in are good ones It depends what you want in your final army It gives you a very good core force with some nice models. You can use one of the Griffons to make a second Phoenix from that kit, then I mounted the extra Prince on a spare horsey I had kicking around But I dont know what I want As I have never played high elves.
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Post by Horace on Aug 3, 2017 13:33:34 GMT
It depends what you want in your final army It gives you a very good core force with some nice models. You can use one of the Griffons to make a second Phoenix from that kit, then I mounted the extra Prince on a spare horsey I had kicking around But I dont know what I want As I have never played high elves. As knoffles said, the list is pretty uniformly strong, you would struggle to pick a really really bad list even if you just choose the models you wanted. So that is what I would do.. You have the option to run several different types of list. The Island of Blood boxes provide you with a decent spine to your army from which you could build the cool stuff around. 2 of those boxes would give you 20 Sea Guard/Spearmen (useful for core and if not I know someone who will take them off your hands ), 10 Reaver Knights (useful fast cav), 20 Swordmasters (glass cannons in the best sense), 2 mages, a Prince on Griffon, and an extra Prince & Griffon you can use for conversions. Plus a load of Skaven stuff you can either use or sell to get a big chunk of money back! Tis a good box set
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Post by knoffles on Aug 3, 2017 13:38:06 GMT
strutsagget Find below some starter links for you that might help give you some ideas. As with everything take it all with a pinch of salt as you may or may not agree with what is written. My preference is to run a cav heavy list, big block of Silverhelms, couple of small units of dragon princes, lion chariots and ellyrion reavers but that's because most of my other armies are infantry based (and I never got round to getting any Bretonnians). I loved the Cavalry Prince thread that Seradain wrote, charting his list evolution through several editions of the game (it is one of the links under the first link below). It's perfectly viable to run all infantry or a combo of both. All the bits you said you already own are all good. I love the sisters, both fluff and models though their range is a bit short compared to your other options and who knows why on earth they never got an option of standard or more importantly a musician. Bolt throwers are one of the classic HE units and are always useful just for the threat at range. High elf tactics links from their forum. www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=36153High elf handbook (book review and analysis) www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=48198Hero's guide to high elf glory (alternative book review and unit analysis) www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=458841D4chan 1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer/Tactics/8th_Edition/High_Elves
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Post by mottdon on Aug 3, 2017 14:27:40 GMT
IoB gives you a really good starter force, but with your other items you've already procured, it sounds like you are well on your way to having a good HE army!
IoB comes with Lothern Sea Guard who are both Archers and Spearmen rolled into one. Of course, Archers are a tad bit better than LSG at shooting and Spearmen are cheaper so that you can simply take more, but with LSG, you can consolidate the points you have to spend in core, since Ellryan Reavers and Silver Helms are both core options as well.
Personally, I like LSG and ER as my core, but if I take Spearmen, I take a 50 man horde. The reason is this: 50 attacks! 10 wide, horde formation = 10 attacks front row, +10 attacks second rank, +10 attacks third rank (because HE), +10 attacks spears, +10 attacks horde formation. Oh, yeah. REROLLABLE. That's GOING to do some damage!
Avoid Silver Helms. They aren't good and almost always die. They do have a 2+ armor save, but that's the only thing they have going for them. They are expensive and you simply don't get that many attacks from them. MAAAAAYBE they can be chaff hunters if taken in units of 5-6. The other core options are much better.
Archers are good in small pockets of fire as well. Spread them out and pick stuff off. But units like the Sisters of Avelorn are MUCH better at shooting and their attacks are both magical and flaming so goodbye Etherial and Regen! So SoA + Bolt Throwers is probably all the shooting you'll need. Just having the option for your LSG to shoot is nice though, so that they aren't always just waiting for a 3rd-4th round of combat to start earning their points back.
Now Special....here's where the strength of HE lies! Pretty much every option here is a good one. Some of them are sub-optimal, but taken in the right context, they can be good. Some examples of sub-optimal special units would be Tiranoc Chariot (sorry, you already have one), Sky-cutter chariot, Shadow Warriors. Pretty much the rest are good.
Swordmasters = High Offense. Each SM has 2 attacks with GW and the elf ASF rule. That means a unit of 5 will dish out 10, S5 attacks before anyone can strike back. Not bad. They have heavy armor and a 6++ Ward Save (I think this is only for shooting attacks though.) Rather squishy, so they need to be backed up with defensive magic (Life?)
White Lions = High Strength Offence + high survivability until CC. Monster killers. This is usually the choice of most HE players due to their high strength attacks + GWs. They are also good vs shooting attacks due to their Lion Pelts which give them +2 armor vs missile fire. Oh, yeah. These guys are STUBBORN. (The Lion Chariots work well combined with these guys on their flank for some extra hitting power, but I wouldn't take the LC by itself.)
(One major thing to note here though is that both SM and WL have great weapons, so the HE ASF and the GW ASL cancel each other out, leaving them to attack in order of Int.)
Pheonix Guard = Defensive unit. My personal favorite. These guys just don't die. They have heavy armor (5+) and a 4++ Ward save. They also carry Halberdiers so they attacks are at S4, BUT they benefit from ASF and higher Int, so REROLLS!
(If you really want to cheese things up, take a unit of PG, a unit of WL and both special characters Korhil(WL) and Caradryan(PG). But instead of putting them in their respective units, put Korhil in the PG and Caradryan in the WL. Korhil will make the PG Stubborn with a high strength attacker, and Caradryan will give the WL MR(3?). It's super cheesey but OMG.)
Dragon Princes = Arguably the best Cav unit in the game. They have a 2+ armor save and a 6++ ward save which goes to a 2++ vs flaming attacks. Nice and defensive. They are also S4 + lances, so S6 on the charge. The Champ can take a magical weapon (up to 25 points) so this can come as a nasty little surprise for challengers. They're expensive at 30 points a piece though, so be sure you know how you want to use these guys.
All of these units can take magical banners.
Both Phoenix options are good. Flamespyre Phoenix is for hordes. Fly over and hit all of them. The Frostheart Phoenix are good against everything but really shine when hitting a flank with a unit of WL, PG, or SM in the front. They make their opponents -1 to hit because of their Cold Aura. Both options have a 4++ ward save.
You'll get a Lord on Griffon in the IoB set, and while he's not bad, there are better option for your lord choice. Equip him with the Lion's Pelt, Star Lance, the Shield of the Merwyrm, and maybe Khaine's Rung of Fury too if you do wind up taking him. Take out war machines, chaff, and things like Doomwheels with this guy. After those are taken care of, charge engaged units in the rear.
If you play HE, you HAVE TO get good at redirecting, though. Their speed and maneuverability can easily accomplish this. (One "trick" that I've learned is to deploy my forces to one side and deploy my ER to the other. After deployment, Vanguard the ER to the middle. Turn one, use their M9 to get where you really want to be. Hopefully, your opponent will have taken the bait and deployed a unit(s) to the opposite side and out of your face.)
So based off what you already have and what you get with the IoB set, I'd say that you might want some of these:
SM, PG, and/or WL. You'll just want those. And in units of at least 30. DP if you want to go heavy cavalry (at least 10-12). A second unit of ER (You get 5 in IoB). A Loremaster of Hoeth (This guy is a fighting mage AND knows all 8 signature spells! -Only a Lv2 caster though.) The General kit. You'll want a BSB from this (The Lothern Sea Helm from the Sky Cutter kit makes a great BSB model as well). A Phoenix. Either one. They're both fun. More LSG, Spearmen, or Archers. You'll get 10 LSG in the IoB set, so I'd get at least a unit of 30 of those guys. (They are 12 points a piece, so their points will go a long way.) I might get another 10 (I'm assuming you already have 10) of the Sisters of Avelorn. These gals work GREAT in units of 20. -Oh, and a Handmaiden of the Everqueen if you go heavy on these Sisters. She's really good with the Reaver Bow! Other than those, it's just stuff for fun.
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Post by frozenfood on Aug 3, 2017 14:34:37 GMT
Reaver bow on noble with potion of strength is an auto-include in our lists
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2017 17:10:53 GMT
IoB gives you a really good starter force, but with your other items you've already procured, it sounds like you are well on your way to having a good HE army! IoB comes with Lothern Sea Guard who are both Archers and Spearmen rolled into one. Of course, Archers are a tad bit better than LSG at shooting and Spearmen are cheaper so that you can simply take more, but with LSG, you can consolidate the points you have to spend in core, since Ellryan Reavers and Silver Helms are both core options as well. Personally, I like LSG and ER as my core, but if I take Spearmen, I take a 50 man horde. The reason is this: 50 attacks! 10 wide, horde formation = 10 attacks front row, +10 attacks second rank, +10 attacks third rank (because HE), +10 attacks spears, +10 attacks horde formation. Oh, yeah. REROLLABLE. That's GOING to do some damage! Avoid Silver Helms. They aren't good and almost always die. They do have a 1+ armor save, but that's the only thing they have going for them. They are expensive and you simply don't get that many attacks from them. MAAAAAYBE they can be chaff hunters if taken in units of 5-6. The other core options are much better. Archers are good in small pockets of fire as well. Spread them out and pick stuff off. But units like the Sisters of Avelorn are MUCH better at shooting and their attacks are both magical and flaming so goodbye Etherial and Regen! So SoA + Bolt Throwers is probably all the shooting you'll need. Just having the option for your LSG to shoot is nice though, so that they aren't always just waiting for a 3rd-4th round of combat to start earning their points back. Now Special....here's where the strength of HE lies! Pretty much every option here is a good one. Some of them are sub-optimal, but taken in the right context, they can be good. Some examples of sub-optimal special units would be Tiranoc Chariot (sorry, you already have one), Sky-cutter chariot, Shadow Warriors. Pretty much the rest are good. Swordmasters = High Offense. Each SM has 2 attacks with GW and the elf ASF rule. That means a unit of 5 will dish out 10, S5 attacks before anyone can strike back. Not bad. They have heavy armor and a 6++ Ward Save (I think this is only for shooting attacks though.) Rather squishy, so they need to be backed up with defensive magic (Life?) White Lions = High Strength Offence + high survivability until CC. Monster killers. This is usually the choice of most HE players due to their high strength attacks + GWs. They are also good vs shooting attacks due to their Lion Pelts which give them +2 armor vs missile fire. Oh, yeah. These guys are STUBBORN. (The Lion Chariots work well combined with these guys on their flank for some extra hitting power, but I wouldn't take the LC by itself.) (One major thing to note here though is that both SM and WL have great weapons, so the HE ASF and the GW ASL cancel each other out, leaving them to attack in order of Int.) Pheonix Guard = Defensive unit. My personal favorite. These guys just don't die. They have heavy armor (5+) and a 4++ Ward save. They also carry Halberdiers so they attacks are at S4, BUT they benefit from ASF and higher Int, so REROLLS! (If you really want to cheese things up, take a unit of PG, a unit of WL and both special characters Korhil(WL) and Caradryan(PG). But instead of putting them in their respective units, put Korhil in the PG and Caradryan in the WL. Korhil will make the PG Stubborn with a high strength attacker, and Caradryan will give the WL MR(3?). It's super cheesey but OMG.) Dragon Princes = Arguably the best Cav unit in the game. They have a 1+ armor save and a 6++ ward save which goes to a 2++ vs flaming attacks. Nice and defensive. They are also S4 + lances, so S6 on the charge. The Champ can take a magical weapon (up to 25 points) so this can come as a nasty little surprise for challengers. They're expensive at 30 points a piece though, so be sure you know how you want to use these guys. All of these units can take magical banners. Both Phoenix options are good. Flamespyre Phoenix is for hordes. Fly over and hit all of them. The Frostheart Phoenix are good against everything but really shine when hitting a flank with a unit of WL, PG, or SM in the front. They make their opponents -1 to hit because of their Cold Aura. Both options have a 4++ ward save. You'll get a Lord on Griffon in the IoB set, and while he's not bad, there are better option for your lord choice. Equip him with the Lion's Pelt, Star Lance, the Shield of the Merwyrm, and maybe Khaine's Rung of Fury too if you do wind up taking him. Take out war machines, chaff, and things like Doomwheels with this guy. After those are taken care of, charge engaged units in the rear. If you play HE, you HAVE TO get good at redirecting, though. Their speed and maneuverability can easily accomplish this. (One "trick" that I've learned is to deploy my forces to one side and deploy my ER to the other. After deployment, Vanguard the ER to the middle. Turn one, use their M9 to get where you really want to be. Hopefully, your opponent will have taken the bait and deployed a unit(s) to the opposite side and out of your face.) So based off what you already have and what you get with the IoB set, I'd say that you might want some of these: SM, PG, and/or WL. You'll just want those. And in units of at least 30. DP if you want to go heavy cavalry (at least 10-12). A second unit of ER (You get 5 in IoB). A Loremaster of Hoeth (This guy is a fighting mage AND knows all 8 signature spells! -Only a Lv2 caster though.) The General kit. You'll want a BSB from this (The Lothern Sea Helm from the Sky Cutter kit makes a great BSB model as well). A Phoenix. Either one. They're both fun. More LSG, Spearmen, or Archers. You'll get 10 LSG in the IoB set, so I'd get at least a unit of 30 of those guys. (They are 12 points a piece, so their points will go a long way.) I might get another 10 (I'm assuming you already have 10) of the Sisters of Avelorn. These gals work GREAT in units of 20. -Oh, and a Handmaiden of the Everqueen if you go heavy on these Sisters. She's really good with the Reaver Bow! Other than those, it's just stuff for fun. High Elf cavalry only have 2+ save. heavy armor, shield, barded warhorse comes to a 2+ save. 6+ ward on the dragon princes. Agree with most of your points. If you want to annoy/piss off your opponent then take a frostheart or 3 (they can be taken as character mounts). -1 S and always strikes last to an enemy unit in base contact really annoys the crap out of people.
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Post by mottdon on Aug 3, 2017 18:05:02 GMT
That's right. I was remembering the Dragon Armor as being a 4+ armor save, but you're right. It only counts as Heavy Armor and a 6++ ward save (as well as the 2++ vs flaming attacks). So even less reason to take Silver Helms. I'll edit my post.
High Elves and Dwarves are probably the second armies that I have the most experience with (both fighting with and against). Empire being the first. After that comes WE, Lizardmen O&G, Ogres, TK, DE, VC. I'm not going to count Brets, WoC or DoC even though I've fought against those armies quite a few times. I've only fought against Beastmen twice and Skaven once.
In my first game with HE, I faced an O&G player who took 2 Doom Divers and 2 Rock Lobbas. He got turn one and with his first volley of shooting, he managed to land two Rock Lobba stones on my Sun Dragon's Head and killed it. Then the Doom Divers fired and killed the mage that was riding it. Talk about dumb luck! Lol!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2017 18:30:54 GMT
No worries bro. I just know that the 1+ armor save is actually pretty rare (thankfully) and only a handful of units have access to it across all the different books. WoC and Empire I think are the only ones with access to plate/chaos armor, which grants that coveted 4+ armor that can bring their mounted units to the 1+ save threshold. Dwarves I know have Gromril, but they're an infantry force, their units have a 3+ save at best. Not even Bretonnians have access to 1+, their units all have a 2+ save.
My order of experience goes: WoC (with) High Elves (against) Skaven (against) Beastmen (with) Bretonnians (against) Vampire Counts (against) DoC (against) Lizardmen (against) Dark Elves (against) Dwarves (with and against) O&G (against) Tomb Kings (against)
I have minimal experience with Empire, Ogre Kingdoms, and Wood Elves
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Post by knoffles on Aug 3, 2017 20:34:05 GMT
I'll admit that Silverhelms are just basic elves with a 2+ save so aren't great compared to some other options but that doesn't make them bad and it doesn't stop me taking them repeatedly in the hope that they'll come good 😀. In an effort to sell their virtues... When using larger units, you need to think of them as an anvil. You need to pick their targets well (clan rats are a good target), basically anything strength/toughness 3. They do have WS4, ASF and can strike in 3 ranks so aren't terrible. Their save is great against low Str troops and as a bonus they can also hit fairly hard on the charge and with movement 9, they should always be getting it off. Alternatively they do work great as armoured chaff or for boosting combat res' in the same way as Empire knights. They also work great with the frost Phoenix (though that could be said for all your choices). And importantly they are core.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2017 20:49:34 GMT
I'll admit that Silverhelms are just basic elves with a 2+ save so aren't great compared to some other options but that doesn't make them bad and it doesn't stop me taking them repeatedly in the hope that they'll come good 😀. In an effort to sell their virtues... When using larger units, you need to think of them as an anvil. You need to pick their targets well (clan rats are a good target), basically anything strength/toughness 3. They do have WS4, ASF and can strike in 3 ranks so aren't terrible. Their save is great against low Str troops and as a bonus they can also hit fairly hard on the charge and with movement 9, they should always be getting it off. Alternatively they do work great as armoured chaff or for boosting combat res' in the same way as Empire knights. They also work great with the frost Phoenix (though that could be said for all your choices). And importantly they are core. The armored chaff is an idea that was recently introduced to me. I think this was in the Empire context but it would work just as well with high elves. Having minimum sized units with maybe just a musician would serve you well as an armored screen, and is something that everyone else's chaff will struggle to deal with, if it's just not outright impossible. To that end I could definitely see a case for 2-3 minimum sized units; once the enemies chaff has been cleared out use them to redirect/hunt chariots/hunt warmachines. They still have lances, and with 5 S5 attacks rerolling hits on the charge (more if you multicharge) chariots and monsters are not safe either. Use your elites to deal with the big combat blocks. Otherwise knoffles hit the nail on the head. They're not...bad. They're great anvils against low S opponents, but they're nothing to write home about.
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Post by mottdon on Aug 3, 2017 21:11:26 GMT
Yeah, they aren't bad, but they are quite expensive for what you're getting. And HE have so many other options that can do that same thing. ER are GREAT at clearing chaff and core, but they can also Vanguard, have Fast Cav movement, and shoot as well. I suppose it just depends on if you want to get them stuck in combat. There are some pretty good chaff options out there that might prove a problem if you don't have much armor.
It's the cost that kinds kills it for me. Since HE are already expensive in general, they tend to suffer from low model count. Core infantry is where they can make a lot of that "number loss" up. Silver Helms pretty much destroy that though.
Now, I don't want to rain on anyone's list building strategies, because this is ONLY my opinion, and an all Cav HE list is a completely valid one, but for someone who is just getting started with them, I wouldn't recommend Silver Helms. I certainly LOVE and all-mounted Empire list and have run that many, many times with great success! The key for a HE all-mounted list would be combo charging and breaking units before they get to strike back. Completely achievable.
For instance, I've run a list that contained 3 Lothern Skycutters. That was incredibly fun! Two had Bolt Throwers and flanked the main Skycutter that had a Sea Helm (with some magic stuff) in it. They basically straffed the board, and then charged in when they had a good lineup (I also had a Tiranoc Chariot and two Lion Chariots that were all racing around and doing some serious Impact Damage. That was a really fun game, even though it wasn't considered an "optimal" list.
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Post by Horace on Aug 4, 2017 13:18:56 GMT
Silver Helms are core with a 2+ AS so I don't really think they are a poor choice. I do think they are nothing like an Anvil though, Elf toughness on cavalry sized units does not an anvil make.
The thing you really need to remember with them is unless you put a hero in there with them, if the charge does not do the damage you wanted they will struggle to fight their way out of a wet paper bag for all the rounds afterwards.
I see them as a fast, combo-charging option with a decent save
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