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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 6, 2023 6:00:11 GMT
A question that came up at a recent event... Orange = Ironguts 2 Yellow = Ironguts 1 Blue = Daemon Prince Green = Chaos Chariot Can the Chaos Chariot "reform" after winning combat vs. the Ironguts 1, to the other side of the Daemon Prince? The same number of models are still in combat after the "reform". The intention is to turn the incoming flank charge from Ironguts 2 into a front charge... Obviously, excel doesn't allow for 50mm / 40mm base interaction..  |
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Post by thegoat on Nov 6, 2023 12:07:13 GMT
A combat reform is still subject to the standard reform rules. In particular the line, "Keeping the center point of the unit the same..." The Chaos Chariot violated that rule pretty clearly.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 6, 2023 13:00:31 GMT
thegoat: Not quite. There is more to Combat Reform than just bringing in more models into CC. But before we elaborate, we must first look at the rules of Combat Reform themselves (BRB p. 55), since they are often misunderstood. First of all, there is a necessary Erratum, without which the rule cannot be played. Since the first update version in 2010, the text of the third paragraph now reads (changes in Italics). BRB p. 55 (updated to Official Update Version 1.9): A combat reform is essentially a standard reform (page 14), save for the fact that the centre point of the reformed unit does not have to stay in the same place. The most common usage of a combat reform is to allow the unit to turn to face its enemy (if attacked in the flank or rear), although it can also be used to bring more models into the fight by increasing the unit's frontage. There are two special restrictions on a combat reform, however — it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in contact before the reform was made was made, and the unit may not reform in such a way as to contact a different facing on any enemy unit it is in contact with. The model can be in base contact with a different enemy at the end of the reform if you wish. That said, a combat reform cannot be used in this way, because the reforming unit must stay in btb with all enemy models in was in btb with. The chariot was in btb with the right hand model of the enemy, hence it has to stay in btb with that model. Furthermore, units cannot move through another unit, unless specifically stated otherwise - which is not the case here. Note that single model units tend to be more limited in their use of a combat reform. For instance, a chariot charged in the flank usually cannot execute a combat reform to face the enemy head-on, because that would bring enemy models out of btb.
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Post by thielemann on Nov 6, 2023 15:14:53 GMT
A combat reform is still subject to the standard reform rules. In particular the line, "Keeping the center point of the unit the same..." The Chaos Chariot violated that rule pretty clearly. It was errata'd that the center point does not have to stay the same. Otherwise combat reform would be wholly impossible except for the case of square-shaped units changing their facing by 90° or 180°. |
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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 6, 2023 22:56:26 GMT
The chariot remains in contact with the enemy, so it's allowed?
The rule wording states the model (chariot) must remain in contact with the enemy (ogres).
So teleporting in this way seems OK to do.
"... it cannot be used to get a model [chariot] (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy [ogres] if it was in contact before the reform was made... "
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Post by thegoat on Nov 6, 2023 23:38:06 GMT
The chariot remains in contact with the enemy, so it's allowed? The rule wording states the model (chariot) must remain in contact with the enemy (ogres). So teleporting in this way seems OK to do. "... it cannot be used to get a model [chariot] (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy [ogres] if it was in contact before the reform was made... " How did the chariot remain in contact while moving to the other side of the daemon prince? |
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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 6, 2023 23:52:22 GMT
It's still in contact with the unit.
The rule only specifies the model that moves needs to remain in contact with the enemy (unit), not the specific model.
"... it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in contact before the reform was made..."
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Post by thielemann on Nov 6, 2023 23:53:39 GMT
In the German rulebook the wording is more clear. No model may be removed from contact with another model.
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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 7, 2023 0:29:14 GMT
That would certainly be clearer if the English one said that 🤣
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Post by thegoat on Nov 7, 2023 1:25:02 GMT
It's still in contact with the unit. At a point during the reform the chariot is clearly not in contact with the enemy unit. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 7, 2023 9:34:03 GMT
It's still in contact with the unit. The rule only specifies the model that moves needs to remain in contact with the enemy (unit), not the specific model. "... it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in contact before the reform was made..." Already asked and answered in Combat Reform: tactical uses. where you may also find answers to questions you never thought of. mottdon : No, it does not mean that. You cannot be in btb contact with an enemy, unless you have charged/were charged by that enemy. You are right, though, they could have been clearer. The English version of the BRB uses "enemy" both for "enemy unit" and "enemy model," which leads to confusion. The context requires here to read "enemy model," and this is confirmed by non-English versions (which are often more precise), like the French version: Cette reformation ne peut pas servir à sortir des figurines (amies ou ennemies) du contact avec l’ennemi si elles étaient au contact avant la reformation. Elles peuvent par contre se retrouves au contact d’autres figurines ennemies.
which translates into: This reform cannot be used to get models (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy, if they were in contact before the reform. However, they can find themselves in contact with different enemy models. Or the German version: "Sie darf nicht verwendet werden, um ein Modell (Freund oder Feind) aus dem Basekontakt mit gegnerischen Modellen zu bewegen, wenn es sich vor der Nahkampf-Neuformierung noch in Basekontakt befunden hat. Das Modell kann sich nach der Neuformierung allerdings durchaus mit einem anderen Modell in Basekontakt befinden, wenn du dies bevorzugst"
which translates into: It cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with enemy models, if it still was in base contact before the combat reform. However, the model can after the reform definitely be in base contact with a different enemy model, if you prefer. So, to answer strutsagget 's question: it is a different enemy model of the enemy unit your unitis in close combat with. Note that the confusing use of "enemy" in the English version is not limited to the rules of combat reform . |
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pete
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Post by pete on Nov 9, 2023 19:35:29 GMT
In the quote
"... it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in contact before the reform was made..."
…the key point is not “contact with the enemy”, it is “model (friend or foe) out of base contact…” that forbids the reform.
Therefore it essentially says exactly what the German version does.
It was only after searching every mention of the word “enemy” in the brb to see what they actually meant, that I discovered that it was irrelevant to the situation above.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 9, 2023 23:29:26 GMT
Not quite: in MCC (which we are talking about here), the model (in the English version) may still be in enemy contact - just not the enemy unit that is executing the combat reform.
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pete
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Post by pete on Nov 10, 2023 17:19:40 GMT
Fidelis, I’m still not with you.
In the quote:
"[The combat reform] cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in contact before the reform was made..."
the term “enemy” here means the same as the German and French translation “enemy models”. In the proposed combat reform at the beginning of the thread, if you ask the question ‘Is the reformed model still in contact with [the enemy / enemy models]’ the answer is ‘yes’.
If you ask the question, ‘Does it matter that it is in contact with a different enemy / enemy models’ the answer is, ‘no’, since:
“The model can be in base contact with a different enemy (enemy model) at the end of the reform if you wish.”
Therefore, the only thing stopping the reform is that a model (foe - in this case) is now out of contact with the enemy / enemy models.
In this wording, as far as I can tell, ‘the enemy / enemy models’ could also be written as ‘any’ enemy models, not ‘the specific’ enemy models it was in contact with before the reform.
Had a unit of Marauders charged in from the right in the initial picture I think that the proposed reform would be allowed because all conditions (English, French or German) are met.
As a final point, the idea that base contact is momentarily lost to get to the other side of the Daemon Prince makes the reform impossible is debatable because of the phrase ‘used to get’ in the sentence:
“[The reform] cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact…”
Was the reform used in order to get the model out of base contact? No. Did the model move out of base contact (for a second)? Yes, but that is not against the wording of the rule.
Imagine using a combat reform to switch a character with another model in a different location in a unit’s frontage. At some point one of those models has had to move out of base contact but this move would surely be allowed.
Let me know if I’ve got this right. Cheers.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 10, 2023 22:37:38 GMT
Context is everything. The combat reform rules (rather self-evidently) apply to the unit that is executing the combat reform. A combat reform "cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with enemy models, if it still was in base contact before the combat reform." "Base contact" here can grammatically and logically only mean "base contact between the reforming unit models and the enemy unit models." This (again rather self-evidently) means that all models of the reforming unit and all the enemy models that were in btb before must stay in btb. Yes, you can re-arrange the reforming unit in such a way that different friendly models are in btb with different enemy models, but, ultimately, all enemy models that were in btb with models of the reforming unit must still be in btb with some models of reforming unit. As I have indicated above: that is more difficult to do if your unit only consists of one model. In the present case, it is impossible for that single model: after any combat reform, it still needs to be in btb with the right hand enemy model. If the DP had not been not there, the chariot could simply move more to the left, as long as it stayed in btb with that model, satisfying all requirements.
Speaking about movement: Warhammer is a permissive system: unless you have a rule specifically stating you can do something, you cannot. There is no rule specifically stating you can move through or around a friendly unit, while executing a combat reform. Therefore, you cannot.
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