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Post by Horace on Apr 30, 2017 19:09:13 GMT
A couple of things came up in my last battle which we ended up unsure of, and a quick google didn't seem to conclusively solve one way or another. I was wondering what your lots take on the matters were and how you play them. 1.) I always played artillery has a 360 o line of sight and gets a free pivot to shoot. Reading through the rules this is not necessarily the case. Do you play it can shoot in 360 degrees or only in it's front arc, requiring a move to turn and shoot at other targets? 2.) Hatred, when a new opponent joins an ongoing combat, does the unit with hatred get re-rolls against the new enemy? Or is the first round of combat literally the first round it fights until it is no longer engaged with any enemies? Curious  |
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Post by Bureaucrat of Chaos on Apr 30, 2017 20:58:31 GMT
The way I see it:
1. Always played free pivot. It says on p. 109 that the pivot doesn't count as moving, so it seems the pivot is unrestricted.
2. Hm, I always thought that the Hatred rule was crystal clear, but the wording is actually unclear now when I read it again. How do you decide 'first'? Anyway, if my unit hated both opposing units, I wouldn't claim re-rolls against the new enemy if I had already claimed them in an earlier round. However, if my unit hated only the new enemy, I would actually like to claim hatred even if the new enemy joined after the literal 'first round' of that close combat! I think the 'round' refers to the cc that goes on in one player turn. If the combat extends over more than one player turn, you don't get re-rolls in those player turns.
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Post by mahbruck on Apr 30, 2017 21:03:09 GMT
1. Page 109 in the Rulebook (concise one) states: "Line of sight is always taken from the chosen firing point (i.e. its muzzle or crossbar, in the same way as for its range) - before you fire the war machine, pivot to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving)." So of course artillery can shoot in 360 degree since the aiming around doesn't count as moving. 2. Yes, they will get Hatred against any hated foes that just join in the combat for the first round they are engaged with them (not necessary the first round of 'the' combat they are in at the moment). For example, a unit of Dreadspears charge a unit of Lothern seaguards, will reroll for Hatred in the first round against them. Then let's suppose the Phoenix guards charge into their flank in the second round, the Dreadspear will get reroll against the guards of Asuryan for this round only and not against the seaguards. And finally when the Silver helms join in the 4th round (as the 3rd belongs to the Dark Elf player), if the Dreadspears are still alive, they can reroll for Hatred against those newcomers as well during this round only. P.s. wrote this post at almost exactly the same time as the Bureaucrat  |
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Post by Horace on Apr 30, 2017 21:10:19 GMT
When you get into the rules lawyering 1.) is not actually that crystal clear. The relevant bits are below. You do get a free pivot but would that not be taken after you have already chosen a target which would have to lie in the forward arc? It is an odd one and not something I have ever considered before it got brought up.
Firstly, the target enemy unit must he at least partially within the shooting model's forward arc, just as it would if your shooting model wished to declare a charge (if you need to refresh your memory about forward arcs, see page 5). Secondly, the shooting model must be able to trace a line of sight to the target (information on line of sight can be found on page 10
Line of sight is always taken from the chosen firing point (i.e. its muzzle or crossbar, in the same way as for its range) - before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving). For war machine weapons that require Ballistic Skill, use the highest Ballistic Skill amongst the crew to resolve the shot.
For the record I always played 360 degrees LOS, shoot anything for 1.) & for 2.) I played re-rolls were allowed as it would be the first round against the new enemy. Just how I always played it with everyone
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Post by Anaris on Apr 30, 2017 21:44:19 GMT
Not 360° you can pivot before hand so essentially is 360°
Also you can't debate the first round of a combat, the first round is the first round.
RAW it would not get hatred against a unit charging on a subsequent turn if they are already engaged.
RAI it would make sense to be able to get hatred on a charging unit that joined your ensuing combat.
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Post by grandmasterwang on May 1, 2017 4:22:42 GMT
The way I see it: 1. Always played free pivot. It says on p. 109 that the pivot doesn't count as moving, so it seems the pivot is unrestricted. 2. Hm, I always thought that the Hatred rule was crystal clear, but the wording is actually unclear now when I read it again. How do you decide 'first'? Anyway, if my unit hated both opposing units, I wouldn't claim re-rolls against the new enemy if I had already claimed them in an earlier round. However, if my unit hated only the new enemy, I would actually like to claim hatred even if the new enemy joined after the literal 'first round' of that close combat! I think the 'round' refers to the cc that goes on in one player turn. If the combat extends over more than one player turn, you don't get re-rolls in those player turns. This is how I play it. |
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Post by frozenfood on May 1, 2017 6:50:35 GMT
We play that you pivot first and fire in your front arc. This means that you can put units next to the steamtank/ironblaster to prevent from pivotting.
First round is first round from the hating guys' perspective
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Post by Bureaucrat of Chaos on May 1, 2017 7:40:47 GMT
When you get into the rules lawyering 1.) is not actually that crystal clear. The relevant bits are below. You do get a free pivot but would that not be taken after you have already chosen a target which would have to lie in the forward arc? It is an odd one and not something I have ever considered before it got brought up. Firstly, the target enemy unit must he at least partially within the shooting model's forward arc, just as it would if your shooting model wished to declare a charge (if you need to refresh your memory about forward arcs, see page 5). Secondly, the shooting model must be able to trace a line of sight to the target (information on line of sight can be found on page 10 Line of sight is always taken from the chosen firing point (i.e. its muzzle or crossbar, in the same way as for its range) - before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving). For war machine weapons that require Ballistic Skill, use the highest Ballistic Skill amongst the crew to resolve the shot. For the record I always played 360 degrees LOS, shoot anything for 1.) & for 2.) I played re-rolls were allowed as it would be the first round against the new enemy. Just how I always played it with everyone Hm, I see. However, if you check under the rules for cannons, Choose Target: "Remember that war machines are allowed to pivot in the Movement phase, the better to bring your chosen target into the weapons line of sight." This sentence was changed in the errata so that the pivoting takes place in Shooting phase instead. |
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Post by Horace on May 1, 2017 8:29:45 GMT
Thanks for that, I believe this is how war machines were intended to work
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Post by mottdon on May 1, 2017 14:45:03 GMT
#1: I've always played they can pivot and shoot.
#2: I've always played that you only get hatred in the first round against the initial opponent. It's certainly less confusing to keep up with but also kinda makes sense given the swirling chaos of close combat.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 16:36:16 GMT
My understanding:
1. Warmachines pivot in the shooting phase. This essentially means a 360° LoS.
2. First round of combat is the first round of combat from the hating units perspective. Subsequent units that charge into that combat are charging into an ONGOING combat whose first round of combat has already been fought.
my $.02
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Post by dannytee on May 2, 2017 0:03:32 GMT
The way I have always played these (not that it means I have been doing it correctly) is:
1) Warmachines can pivot during the shooting phase 360 degrees to bring a target into line of sight.
2) Hatred only applies to the first round of a combat (ie from the point that the units first engage until the first combat resolution). So for example dwarves are fighting allied orcs and goblins and chaos warriors. Dwarves charge a chaos unit and fight normally. Neither unit flees. In the next turn a goblin unit charges the dwarves but a round of combat has already been fought so dwarves do not get hatred re-rolls. However dwarves win this combat and both chaos and goblins flee. Now it is dwarf turn and the dwarves charge an orc unit. Dwarves get hatred against these orcs because it is a new combat.
However reading though the rule book just now I do see where both of the above are not 100% clear. I think however that what I put above are reasonable interpretations.
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Post by gjnoronh on May 2, 2017 12:10:05 GMT
FWIW IIRC in 8th remember LoS is from the models eyes. Crew can be placed facing in multiple directions.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 16:36:20 GMT
yes that's true but I thought in 8th you now ignore the crew? The warmachine crew are now there basically as wound markers for the machine itself and for a close combat profile?
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Post by vulcan on May 2, 2017 18:45:26 GMT
You draw LOS from the warmachine itself, not the crew. The barrel of the cannon, the point of a ballista bolt, the crosspiece of a catapult. The crew only matter for taking wounds and close combat.
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