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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 19, 2017 11:53:43 GMT
Yes, so why does it allow a FREE pivot when it's a 3200 mil arc of fire? It it were a 3200 mil arc there would be NO NEED to pivot in the first place. Greg Where do you get the 3200 mil arc of fire from? What does that even mean? The war machine rules do not mention arcs of fire at all (because they do not apply), and for other models/units the arcs "extend out from its corners at 45° angles, forming four 90° quadrants" (BRB p. 5). Indeed, your own question already contains the answer: "If it were a 3200 mil arc there would be NO NEED to pivot in the first place." Nowhere in the rules it says that war machines have a 3200 mil arc of fire (whatever is meant by that), but the rules do state explicitly that war machines are allowed to pivot, before firing. So, the rules expressis verbis foresee a need to pivot, but not a 3200 mils arc of fire. |
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Aug 19, 2017 14:58:08 GMT
If you and your opponent agree to play the game different from the actual rules, be my guest. That does not change the fact that the official rules allow the war machines a free pivot before firing. Totally agree, it says it on page 112 of the rule book under the paragraph Choose target "Remember that war machines are allowed to pivot in the movement phase" All I'm saying is why would they have this written down if the warmachine had a 3200 mil (360 degree) arc of fire in the first place. Where do you get the 3200 mil arc of fire from? What does that even mean? It is a unit of measurement that is more accurate than a degree. Same way as we use fahrenheit and celsius. Anyway, if the warmachine isn't required to move as it can see "everything" why is the rule there in the first place? It makes no sense. Sure you are encouraged to measure from an approperate position on the model, the end of the barrel, the crossbar on a stone thrower or whatever you want - as long as you use the same point for the duration of the game. Greg |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 19, 2017 15:28:21 GMT
Probably because of the simple reason that war machines have no bases and no arcs to begin with. As I pointed out already a couple of times, the war machine section does not contain a single reference to war machines having arcs. It is true that they could have said that war machines have a 360 degree arc of fire and achieve the same result. But they did not, and speculation about why they chose a particular phrase instead of another with the same result can have no bearing on the interpretation of the rules.
To add: verisimilitude may have had a role to play in the wording. I, for one, would definitely prefer to pivot my cannons in the direction they are actually shooting, without my opponent claiming that they could not shoot, because they moved.
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Aug 19, 2017 17:25:23 GMT
I'm a firm believer in holding that conversation with my opponent. For example to avoid that "you've moved that cannon" talk, simply say in the movement phase, I'm just turning (pivoting) this towards your XYZ unit.
Greg
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 19, 2017 20:01:56 GMT
Obviously, no one (well, at least not I) will object to that. But may I point out that "Remember that war machines are allowed to pivot in the Movement phase" is not valid, and has not been valid for some time. This was already rectified by an Erratum to read ""Remember that war machines are allowed to pivot in the Shooting phase" in 2010. As I pointed out above in my general discussion of the issue, the French version of the BRB had this correct from the start, indicating this had been the original intent from the start.
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Aug 19, 2017 20:25:07 GMT
👍
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Post by strutsagget on Aug 20, 2017 7:50:18 GMT
So as a newbie. Do I get it right? Warmachine can target anyting within LoS (360deg) and range. But to make a better gaming experience you pivot to the target first in the shooting phase? If a unit is in the way of pivoting what do you do? So adding an other question as I am currently the maester of basesizes  Do people prefer putting warmachines on bases? And what size and shape do people prefer? |
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Post by mottdon on Aug 20, 2017 11:12:48 GMT
Yes, war machines can target anything within 360 degrees, LoS and range.
They're should never be an issue with pivoting because they should be considered one unit. It'd be the same as a single model reforming to face someone in his flank after a round of combat. Some people might argue that you have to play as the model is sculpted, but those are the same people who would model their cannon on top of a tall pillar and say that it has true line of sight to everything. (Fortunately, these people won't be playing very long because nobody will want to play them.)
As far as the "correct" base size, I've never seen one affirmed. Everyone's different. Personally, I try to go with a standard round base size to indicate the 360 shooting.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 20, 2017 13:25:44 GMT
Most of my Warmachines are unbased. For whatever reason I prefer them this way generally and the ones I have balance without bases.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 20, 2017 13:45:02 GMT
Regarding the pivot and blocking units: there are examples where pivoting is never blocked, in particular in the case of fleeing units. For example: - BRB p. 17: Immediately turn the unit about its centre so that it is facing directly away from the centre of the charging enemy unit (ignore other units or impassable terrain). This turn is 'free' and does not reduce the distance the unit will flee.1
But you may notice that that the rule specifically mentions to "ignore other units." The war machine rules do not, and thus cannot just ignore other units when pivoting. That said, the war machine pivot does not count as moving (BRB p. 109). It therefore does not have to adhere to the 1" rule, which applies to moving units (BRB p.13). Given the lack of bases (and the fact that you can pivot in both directions), that should still ensure that war machines should still be able to pivot unblocked towards their intended target in most circumstances. On a side note: I have met many a player who argued RAI>RAW, where the alleged intent ran clearly counter to the wording of the rules, but who were quite anal about the 1" rule. The funny thing is that the 1" rule is one of the few rules where the intent is explictly stated. - BRB p. 13: This rule is purely for clarity. It's important to be able to tell at a glance where one unit stops and another begins. [Italics mine]
So, it is not intended to block movement which would bring the unit within less than 1" of a different unit, but without touching it. Provided, of course, the unit at the end of its movement would remain up 1" apart of all other units. 1) That "turn" = "pivot" here is clear from the accompanying example, and other paragraphs on fleeing units. |
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Aug 20, 2017 14:59:23 GMT
The only warmachines I have based are my screaming skull catapults and that only to protect them while being carried, they fit on a chariot base so it's not really a problem, or hinderance.
Greg
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Post by Horace on Aug 21, 2017 6:22:12 GMT
I have begun basing mine on rectangular bases. I don't like the lack of uniformity
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Post by Horace on Aug 21, 2017 6:23:35 GMT
I just use whichever size fits
(Can you edit on tapatalk?)
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Post by strutsagget on Aug 21, 2017 6:31:58 GMT
I just use whichever size fits (Can you edit on tapatalk?) On ipad/iphone you hard press/mark an item and then you get choices to edit, quote and so on when you release. |
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Post by knoffles on Aug 21, 2017 7:30:54 GMT
I tend to use square resin artillery bases with my dwarves (pics are in the throng of Karak Silvertop paint thread). They are about an inch wider than a cannon/organ gun etc on either side. This allows me to place them almost flush against my blocks of troops and know how much additional width I need to allow units to pivot. I'm always clear about this when deploying so there can be no questions on it during the game.
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Do people prefer putting warmachines on bases? And what size and shape do people prefer?
