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Post by gregwarhamsters on Jun 20, 2017 6:00:32 GMT
I started to read a battle report on this forum and a thought struck me straight away, now it may be covered elsewhere but I wanted to make a comment on game points. Players agree to a maximum game size, say 2400 points now I personally consider it cheating or at the very least bad sportsmanship if any of these excesses are breached. Now I do (as pointed out in the report) play end times allowances, the 50% Lords and 50% hero’s makes a huge difference to some of my lists, the ability to take a second level 4 or even a tooled up fighty Lord and a mage is great but I draw the line when going over points.
Do you let things slide or do you insist on a maximum?
I guess it comes from a game I had several years ago, it was 40K but the principle is the same. I was playing Black Templars (Space marines) and I was against Chaos space marines. My opponent had maximised his choices but hadn’t upgraded many things so there wasn’t really any fat in the list to chop and change a few things. The game changed when he used a melta gun (10 points) on my Land raider and destroyed it. He took out the men inside it before they could close to combat range and it all fell apart. Nothing bad about that and I accepted the defeat. Thing is he was over points. Only by a couple but still over. I critiqued his list and found that the ONLY weapon option he could afford wasa plasma gun (6 points) now these can’t hurt land raiders so I wouldn’t have lost the vehicle and the unit inside. I could have driven around the battle field with almost impunity and assaulted the units of my choice. Basically I was robbed! Cheated!
Now has something similar happened to you? Someone’s death star reduced to a single model and you gain nothing from the unit in the way of points, what if they didn’t have enough points for that last model? In these games there’s no bit points for half a unit, it’s all or nothing.
Thoughts?
Greg
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Post by knoffles on Jun 20, 2017 6:30:59 GMT
My views is somewhat skewed as I'm, well let's just say work in finance and and as such expect numbers to be spot on. Add to that the number of army programs that are out there, there should be no reason to go over the points. If you have agreed points and they go over it I consider that cheating. (Plus that is half the fun of list building, to fit everything into the limits available). I've found that normally, even if an opponent has been up front and said before the night they want to slightly exceed the agreed points, it's because they've found some nasty combo, so I probably don't want to agree it anyway. Thankfully almost everyone at the club tends to stick to agreed points limits (and it's 2500 non end times with the exception of the 50% lord/hero limit).
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Post by Horace on Jun 20, 2017 8:29:00 GMT
I think I would be pretty anal about making someone get in at the agreed points. It isn't really difficult, drop a unit champion or something. I hate having to cut things from my list to make it fit so if I have to do it..
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Post by gjnoronh on Jun 20, 2017 13:26:36 GMT
Numbers should be correct if we are using points. An honest math mistake is an honest math mistake. Being over and asking for a 'pass' is silly IMO. Having list checked armies at a GT for the last few years you wouldn't believe the number of math errors I find (and in all honesty I've made a few myself!)
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Post by mottdon on Jun 20, 2017 13:53:02 GMT
Yeah, I consider it cheating too. The math is simple and so are the rules. Stick to them. I also don't consider it a "win" for your opponent. He went outside of the rules. If you had done the same, you could have won too, but that just adds far too many variables to declare a "winner".
And like others have said, it's all too easy to tweak your list. Drop a Champ, or even a model or two. If he was incapable of doing that, then it's not a legit list.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 16:17:39 GMT
I don't consider it cheating at all. I'm not going to be a douche and make you retool your list because you're a few points over or you've spent too many points on Lords. If we're playing in a campaign or a tournament (that's hypothetical, I HATE the tournament mindset and have never participated in one) then I could understand the hard line being enforced. But garage hammer with friends? Who cares? I've been playing since I was 15 with friends and we've always been flexible with each other. If we've come up with some super combo then sure try it out! At the end of the day I'm just happy to get in a relaxed game and enjoy some social time with friends. EDIT: I will say however that I strongly PREFER that you stick to the allotted points and point ratios. I also am not a fan of end times and would prefer that those point ratios be ignored and just stick to the 25% limit. Don't abuse my being laid back about these things too consistently or I may bite
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Post by frozenfood on Jun 20, 2017 16:37:25 GMT
I'm in the relaxed camp. Percentages have to be spot on, no end of time shennanigans. Overall it can be 2406 instead of 2400. I'll just add an extra archer.
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Post by mottdon on Jun 20, 2017 20:07:16 GMT
Well, sure, I don't mind if someone goes over 6 points. It's all too easy to add a little something. But when someone is purposefully trying to get away with something as in the example that gregwarhamsters gave, I don't go for that. Don't try to pull a fast one. As long as they are honest and on the up-and-up, we're cool.
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Post by Horace on Jun 20, 2017 20:18:42 GMT
Lose a champion and be 4 points under?
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Post by grandmasterwang on Jun 20, 2017 23:03:14 GMT
I'm pretty chilled but in my gaming group we stick to the points limit if we are having an even points battle. There is a 5 point grace limit where say 2002 points is ok in a 2000 point game. However If going over by 1 point or more the both parties must be informed, there's never been an issue with this though or the game not happening.
I remember watching a game at my local GW at 2000 points where it turned out one of them was actually playing a 2250+ points list vs the 2000 points one.
I personally always try to stick to the points limit exactly when making a list.
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Post by frozenfood on Jun 21, 2017 4:41:51 GMT
250 points is not an oversight. Was he playing bretonnians or beastmen and thought it was like in tournaments? Or was he a douche?
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Post by mottdon on Jun 21, 2017 13:11:01 GMT
Yeah, that's a lot. I totally get someone messing up their math by a few points, that's just human nature, but 250?!? That's intentional. Now, if he thought they were playing a 2250 point game, then that's another thing too. (Although both players should have caught on pretty quick. "Hey, how'd you fit that Steam Tank in with you list too?") But even if you enjoyed the game (or even won!), it'd still feel somewhat un-legitimate to me.
When I build my lists, I want to see how they do and hone my list-building skills. If the game is unbalanced, then I don't truly know how I did. That makes me frustrated because I'll either have to play that exact list again (which opportunities to play don't come all that often for me anymore), or make assumptions about it.
I love getting together with my friends and it is always a laid-back event with plenty of laughter and joking, but I expect them to be as fair and considerate as me. I don't think that's asking too much.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 16:17:54 GMT
Agreed. That big of a point disparity makes for an unfun game, even if you win.
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Post by mahbruck on Jun 22, 2017 3:44:15 GMT
Personal anecdote: ages ago, during my preparation for the Warhammer Grand Final in Nottingham (the most cutthroat in the universe!), I actually asked my club members to play 2500/3000 pts armies vs my tournament 2000 pt army. It was heaps of fun and helped aplenty for the horrors to come At this moment, I would be ecstatic to find a player to game with, much less caring about several (hundred) points over or under...
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Jun 22, 2017 6:39:15 GMT
Interesting set of replies.
I guess it’s like a shop, I walk in and make a purchase (in this case it’s points for models) and I pay at the till on the way out. If I’m over budget and have insufficient funds the shop owner will take something back that I cannot pay for.
People seem to suggest that usually it’s they must be within limits but it’s OK to go over in some cases. Thing is where do you draw the line, as mentioned above it’s usually some nasty combo that you’d not like to face – or if it is expand the points limit. I usually play 2400 but if my opponent was over say 20 points then why not just play 2500 points?
There’s some dislike to end times points values of 50% lords, as this was a rule book change is it really and end times change or just a rule book update? What I mean is if you were playing in an end times game does it say in THAT book 50% Lords and heros or is it the BRB?
Anyway, I’m playing a 3000 point game this Friday, not sure if I’ll be playing Lizards or Dwarves, both are exactly 3000 points. My Dwarf list I’m using 11.66% Lords so well inside the limit while the Lizards it’s 34.5% An Ethereal Slann and an Old Blood on a carnosaur. If I had to go 25% I’d not get the big beastie in, it’s not a deadly combo or anything but it does change what I’d have to do in the army. Played a VC army a while ago, the 25% cap would have meant I couldn’t have had a blender lord and a level 4 necromancer, again changing the dynamic of the list.
Regards
Greg
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