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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 23, 2017 22:48:27 GMT
If I read your example correctly, the fundamental error there is the assumption that S&S is connected with resolving the charge. This is not the case. The charge sequence is as follows: 1. Declare a charge 2. Declare and resolve the charge reaction 3. Go back to step 1 & 2 until all units you wish to charge have done so 4. Roll for the charge range and move all charging units, in any order you like.
S&S is declared and resolved immediately after the charge is declared. So, the charging unit has not moved yet, nor do we know what its charge range will be, because the charge ranges are only rolled, after all charges have been declared and their charge reactions declared and resolved.
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Post by vulcan on Aug 23, 2017 23:37:06 GMT
He's basically saying the pistol can't fire since the unit all shoots at once, and the unit automatically fires once the target reaches maximum range for the CROSSBOWS, which is out of range of the PISTOL.
Which is not the way I understood the rule works, but then we're talking about GW's writing...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 23:58:53 GMT
This is how I see it too. Makes taking a pistol pointless as even handguns aren't going to be outranged by a charge (longest charge distance possible to my knowledge is 22", well within 24" handgun range)
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Post by frozenfood on Aug 24, 2017 7:11:57 GMT
Longest charge distance Bretonnians is a bit more. D6 + D6 +2D6 +8 is the maximum. Not ideal but quite a surprise for the other side
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 24, 2017 8:20:49 GMT
He's basically saying the pistol can't fire since the unit all shoots at once, and the unit automatically fires once the target reaches maximum range for the CROSSBOWS, which is out of range of the PISTOL. Which is not the way I understood the rule works, but then we're talking about GW's writing... No, I am not. The pistol can shoot too. As I myself have pointed out above: The difference with normal shooting attacks is that models can even shoot when the target is not in range – it is now assumed to be in range (BRB p.39). If the charger at that position is further away than half the weapon's maximum range, that weapon will suffer a -1 shooting modifier for long range (in addition to all other modifiers). To add: this also applies to any crosbowmen (to stay with that example) that would normally be out of range. Basically, in a S&S all models in the first two ranks can shoot, provided the target is in their frontal arc and they have LoS. The problem is that people are approaching this from a fluff, not from a game perspective. It apparently cannot be stressed enough: a S&S reaction is executed against an enemy that is still at its starting position, does not move, and will not move until after all charges have been declared and the charge reactions resolved. Indeed, the charging unit may never actually end up in range at all (for instance, in the case of a failed charge), but that does not matter for S&S.
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Post by mottdon on Aug 24, 2017 14:21:17 GMT
Sweet. So the chargee gets to S&S no matter the range. Range only comes into play when determining negative modifiers and those modifiers are calculated based off the charger's starting position. All shooting weapons can S&S regardless of the weapon's range value, as long as they are in the front arc and have line of sight. This is why it's a good idea to give your champion a Brace of Pistols if he has the option (as with Thunderers). Though I suppose this would add another -1 modifier for multiple shots?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 24, 2017 14:51:54 GMT
Yep, the brace of pistols will have an additional -1 to Hit for Multiple Shot. Remember, though, that you can always choose to fire such a weapon only once but without penalty.
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Post by mottdon on Aug 24, 2017 15:04:07 GMT
I never realized that you had the option to only shoot once with the BoP. Makes sense fluff-wise, but I always thought it was akin to taking a magical weapon. Once you have it, you gotta use it. Very cool though.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 24, 2017 15:07:59 GMT
Well, you are using it - but only once. That said, "If for some reason a model has more than one missile weapon, he is allowed to choose which one to fire during the Shooting phase" (BRB p. 89) - which includes magical missile weapons.
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Post by mottdon on Aug 24, 2017 16:23:01 GMT
Well, I suppose most of my real instances of actually using a BoP were all with a Witch Hunter so I was just looking for his 6's to hit for Killing Blow. Lol.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 24, 2017 20:35:19 GMT
In that case, I assume you did not forget to equip him with the RRR.
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Aug 24, 2017 22:50:34 GMT
Longest charge distance Bretonnians is a bit more. D6 + D6 +2D6 +8 is the maximum. Not ideal but quite a surprise for the other side could you elaborate on this please. I'm looking at a completely different set of numbers. Greg
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Aug 24, 2017 22:55:34 GMT
so I was just looking for his 6's to hit for Killing Blow. Lol. obvious typo as you mean to wound surely. RRR is a loophole and I'm sure it was never intended - but sure, its in there. Greg
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Aug 24, 2017 23:15:34 GMT
I'm guilty of Greg's line of thinking with regards to S&S so please...continue. I'm still reading it as the unit fires at just inside the maximum range of the shortest weapon in the unit. Which is 12". Yes I can see starting at say 22" away would mean the crossbows could fire but I don't believe they do, the Thane (in this case) tells his fellow dwarves to fire when he does and that's only when you see the whites of their eyes! I agree with you over sequence, Declare charge Declare reaction obviously possible to declare multiple charges on the same target but you can only S&S onceS&S is out of sequence but happens before you move the chargers. I don't think it manners what you roll for distance on the charge as by then you've already fired your volley. Greg
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Post by frozenfood on Aug 25, 2017 5:23:17 GMT
Longest charge distance Bretonnians is a bit more. D6 + D6 +2D6 +8 is the maximum. Not ideal but quite a surprise for the other side could you elaborate on this please. I'm looking at a completely different set of numbers. Greg Sure 2d6 normal charge 8 normal move D6 Virtue of the Impetuous Knight D6 Banner of ....does not exist? Damn +1 Banner of swiftness then So maximum is 33 inch
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