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Post by frozenfood on Aug 23, 2017 5:02:01 GMT
A unit can stand and shoot if it is charged and the attacking units is not within its normal move distance.You get a -1 modifier. Can you use multi shot? Do you still get the -1 modifier against skirmishers? They need to huddle up before they charge you, right?
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 23, 2017 5:59:24 GMT
You can still use multi shot for Stand and Shoot, but with an additional -1 to hit due to Stand and Shoot unless they have quick to fire rules.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 23, 2017 7:42:54 GMT
BRB p. 17: "If a Stand and Shoot charge reaction is declared, the unit makes a normal, although out of sequence, shooting attack against the charging unit." It is a normal shooting attack, so normal rules apply - unless specified otherwise, of course, which is not the case for Multiple Shots.
Weapons with the Quick to Fire rule do not get a malus for moving and shooting, but they do get the malus for S&S. However, they "can always be used to Stand and Shoot against a charging enemy, even if that enemy would normally be too close for such a charge reaction to be declared" (BRB p. 73).
BRB p. 77: "all shots aimed at a unit of Skirmishers suffer an additional -1 To Hit penalty." The formation of the Skirmishers does not matter. They also get it in buildings:
Official Update Version 1.9, p. 8: Q: What will the To Hit modifier be for shooting at a unit in a building with the Skirmishers special rule? (p40) A: It will be -3 in total. -2 for being in hard cover and -1 for having the Skirmishers special rule.
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Aug 23, 2017 8:55:44 GMT
... and in summary folks, the out of sequence shooting is done as per all the normal modifiers (range, multiple shot, skirmish etc) but with an additional -1 to hit.
Obviously there are exceptions, Dwarf crafted weapons don't suffer this and you can sometimes use the rule to your advantage. For example, a character with a pistol (12") would fire when the enemy gets at the maximum range of that weapon system. The thunderers would do the same which is at half distance of that weapon system so they'd not get the over half range modifier for firing at 12". Please note the second rank would be just over 12" so they would get the -1 range. Crossbows being 15" would be ideal.
Greg
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 23, 2017 9:05:35 GMT
However, that only applies "against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range" (BRB p. 17).
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Post by frozenfood on Aug 23, 2017 10:40:40 GMT
Learning a lot, thanks
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 23, 2017 10:57:21 GMT
Perhaps it is an appropriate moment to detail the whole procedure:
1. Unit A declares a charge against unit B 2. Unit B declares its reaction: S&S 3. This reaction is resolved immediately, following the normal rules of shooting and adding a negative modifier of -1 for S&S.
It is important to note that the charging unit that has not moved yet from its starting position, and you apply the normal rules for shooting from that position: - LoS and frontal arc for each model are determined from that position. - If the target panics, then it will move from that position. - Cover is determined from that position. For instance, other units in between the shooters and the chargers at that position will provide hard cover, even though they may be gone, when the chargers actually move.
The difference with normal shooting attacks is that models can even shoot when the target is not in range – it is now assumed to be in range (BRB p.39). If the charger at that position is further away than half the weapon's maximum range, that weapon will suffer a -1 shooting modifier for long range (in addition to all other modifiers).
However, against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range, shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon (what gregwarhamster was referring to).
4. After resolving the shooting and any potential Panic attacks, UNIT B is treated as having declared a hold reaction.
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Aug 23, 2017 12:57:04 GMT
However, that only applies "against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range" (BRB p. 17). If it were inside the maximum range then it wouldn't make any sense (of difference) to the outcome. Lets say a single line of (10) dwarf crossbow with a thane armed with a pistol face a small unit (5) of Empire Cavalry. the Cavalry declare a charge at a distance of 18" away. Stand and shoot declared. Now it doesn't matter the range as it's assumed the shooters will fire once within range. As my learned friend points out with page references, it's possible to panic the charging unit and they then don't complete the charge at all. I digress.. ChargeSo, 10 Crossbows and a pistol. They will fire at the 12" range of the pistol. The pistol is over half range (so -1) but no other modifiers apply (dwarf crafted) BS4 so 4's to hit. Crossbows under half range (12") no modifiers BS3 so 4's to hit. The cavalry (18" away charge). (7") roll badly 1,2,3 so fail the charge. They move forward 3" they are now within half range of the crossbows. Charge!So, 10 Crossbows and a pistol. They will fire at the 12" range of the pistol. The pistol is over half range (so -1) but no other modifiers apply (dwarf crafted) BS4 so 4's to hit. Crossbows under half range (12") no modifiers BS3 so 4's to hit. The cavalry (15" away charge). (7") roll badly 1,1,5, so fail the charge. They move forward 5" they are within half range of the crossbows. Charge!!So, 10 Crossbows and a pistol. They will fire at the 12" range of the pistol. The pistol is over half range (so -1) but no other modifiers apply (dwarf crafted) BS4 so 4's to hit. Crossbows under half range (12") no modifiers BS3 so 4's to hit. The cavalry (10" away charge). (7") roll well 1,4,5, so successfully charge. At all times the pistol (quick to fire) can be fired, the crossbows could only fire if the cavalry were outside of 7" (the cavalry's normal movement) This would be worse if say it were human crossbowmen as they're suffering an additional -1 to hit because of the stand and shoot. Greg
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 23, 2017 14:54:18 GMT
Your example is flawed. The Crossbowmen do not shoot at 12," but at the range the target is at. As it says in BRB p. 17: "A Stand and Shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range — the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged." Otherwise the normal rules for shooting regarding range apply.
In your example the maximum range of the shooting unit is 30". The charge takes place at 18" - inside, not outside. the maximum range
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Post by mottdon on Aug 23, 2017 15:11:06 GMT
I think he was probably referring to the 12" of the pistol - the shortest ranged weapon. I'm assuming though.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 23, 2017 15:17:00 GMT
He assumes that the whole unit will always S&S at the maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon. But the BRB only allows this "against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range." The maximum range of a Crossbowmen unit is 30" - with or without the pistol. Given that the charge started within, not without the maximum range, this particular rule does not apply.
In the example above, that means that shots fired against at enemy models that are further away than half the maximum range of the weapon (either crossbow or pistol) will suffer a -1 shooting modifier.
To add: feel free to play it differently - but is not what the official rules say. Note that the rule basically can only apply to shooting units with a maximum range of less than 21", since in normal circumstances the maximum possible charge range is 21".
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 17:01:15 GMT
This is a good discussion keep it up.
I'm guilty of Greg's line of thinking with regards to S&S so please...continue.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 17:10:53 GMT
I guess I've always thought that to mean that if the charging unit starts outside the maximum range of the units *shortest* ranged weapon.
I see I'm wrong though and that the rulebook doesn't say that.
I'll still probably play it my way though. It makes sense that the unit would wait to fire until that pistol could also shoot.
To be honest I think that all S&S should be considered at short range as the firing unit waits to fire until it can do the most damage (the whites of their eyes and all that)
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 23, 2017 18:37:09 GMT
No doubt, fluffwise, the latter would make sense. However, if I allow myself to speculate, the reason for the difference may be balance. Units that start their charge inside the maximum rage of the shooting unit they charge could have been shot at by that shooting unit in the previous turn, which is not the case for those starting outside the maximum range.
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Aug 23, 2017 22:21:36 GMT
In the example above, that means that shots fired against at enemy models that are further away than half the maximum range of the weapon (either crossbow or pistol) will suffer a -1 shooting modifier. To add: feel free to play it differently - but is not what the official rules say. OK, can you do me a favour, can you rewrite my examples of the 3x charges above in how you understand the rule. It would highlite what your sayin' Ta
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