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Post by gregwarhamsters on Aug 25, 2017 5:42:42 GMT
I too would have gone with swiftness.
Move (swiftness) 9 Charge (Swiftstride) max 12 Virtue max 6
Still only make that 27 though.
Obviously not to be sniffed at. I too thought there was another banner or something, I did think of the antlers but that's only on pursueing and it gives you an extra die to roll but you're selecting the highest.
Cheers
Greg
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Post by mottdon on Aug 25, 2017 6:49:12 GMT
so I was just looking for his 6's to hit for Killing Blow. Lol. obvious typo as you mean to wound surely. RRR is a loophole and I'm sure it was never intended - but sure, its in there. Greg Yeah, to wound.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 25, 2017 7:58:35 GMT
I'm guilty of Greg's line of thinking with regards to S&S so please...continue. I'm still reading it as the unit fires at just inside the maximum range of the shortest weapon in the unit. Which is 12". Yes I can see starting at say 22" away would mean the crossbows could fire but I don't believe they do, the Thane (in this case) tells his fellow dwarves to fire when he does and that's only when you see the whites of their eyes! I agree with you over sequence, Declare charge Declare reaction obviously possible to declare multiple charges on the same target but you can only S&S onceS&S is out of sequence but happens before you move the chargers. I don't think it manners what you roll for distance on the charge as by then you've already fired your volley. Greg You keep ignoring the part that says "against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range." The maximum range of a shooting unit is...its maximum range. S&S is "a normal, although out of sequence, shooting attack." Unless specified otherrwise, normal rules apply (that is why they are the normal rules), and nowhere in the normal rules it says that "the unit fires at just inside the maximum range of the shortest weapon in the unit." That is only specified "against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range." If the unit does not start its charge outside the maximum range, the rule does not apply. Whatever your Thane might say, the rules say otherwise. Fluff arguments carry no weight in a rules' debate. But to make you happy, I'll even add one. As it says about S&S on p. 41, "Having a bellowing enemy bear down on you whilst you're trying to aim is most distracting." However, if the enemy starts its charge out of the maximum range of your weapons anyway, you have time enough to get your act together, and wait for the best possible moment. That is the problem with fluff. You can always come up with a fluff argument for or against something (as was already apparent from the Flaming Attacks discussion).
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 25, 2017 8:03:40 GMT
obvious typo as you mean to wound surely. RRR is a loophole and I'm sure it was never intended - but sure, its in there. Greg It is neither a loophole, nor was it never intended: Empire Official Update Version 1.2 Q: If a Witch Hunter is equipped with a magic item such as the Ring of Volans or the Ruby Ring of Ruin, will any bound spell effects/magic missiles retain the Killing Blow special rule against the target of the Witch Hunter’s Accusation rule? (p37) A: Yes.
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Post by frozenfood on Aug 25, 2017 8:55:26 GMT
Fact n°1: I cannot count Fact n°2: Witch hunters scare the bajeesus out of my adversary
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 25, 2017 13:11:29 GMT
Fact n°3: I cannot count Fact n°2: Witch hunters scare the bajeesus out of my adversary FTFY
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Post by avatarofbugman on Aug 25, 2017 14:55:06 GMT
Greg[/quote]You keep ignoring the part that says "against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range." The maximum range of a shooting unit is...its maximum range. S&S is "a normal, although out of sequence, shooting attack." Unless specified otherrwise, normal rules apply (that is why they are the normal rules), and nowhere in the normal rules it says that "the unit fires at just inside the maximum range of the shortest weapon in the unit." That is only specified "against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range." If the unit does not start its charge outside the maximum range, the rule does not apply. Whatever your Thane might say, the rules say otherwise. Fluff arguments carry no weight in a rules' debate;[/quote]
I have perused many forums to try and clarify this, and it seems that most people play it as you shoot when the pistol is in range, although I see the rules as saying something entirely different. This send to very much be a RAW vs RAI issue. I would play it as all members of the unit can shoot at -2 (s&s plus long range) including the pistols. Thus a compromise for both camps.
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Aug 25, 2017 15:52:19 GMT
Empire Official Update Version 1.2 I'm not questioning the update mate, but as it's an update it's something that's happened AFTER the fact therefore a change to the way it was before, maybe to make it clearer but either way probably not intended but I', not arguing with you as it’s a rule NowGreg
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Aug 25, 2017 16:16:49 GMT
Greg, you keep ignoring "against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range."
Ref FvonSigmaringen: No, I'm not ignoring it, I get the idea that if outside the maximum range of the weapon system you'll have to wait until in range before firing. However you shoot before any dice are rolled. Lets say a unit of Dwarves are armed with throwing axes and a unit of cavalry wish to charge them from 18" away. (they'll need an 11) the dwarves can still S&S, the cavalry player rolls, fails the charge and moves I dunno, 6 inches. They're now 12" away and still out of effective weapon range but you're still allowed to make a S&S. it says you can declare it even if outside the maximum range. It's one of the few parts of the game that's fluid and happens simultaneously. Even combat is usually decided in initiative order. I still maintain that however you read it in black and white it says units shortest range weapon. You don't work out distances of the charger unit after the S&S has been resolved so the actual range of any weapon is irrelevant – it’s whether or not the charge is of legal distance and can be declared, the only thing you should worry about is arc of fire and other modifiers should they apply. I think you’re hung up on the outside maximum range thing, I read it as I’m allowed to even if your outside the weapon range. Normally these shots would obviously miss. I'm thinking a bit along the lines of how fanatics work. You charge a unit but have to stop at 8" and they're now released. After they're released you can continue your charge. I guess though having rolled to see if you can make it to the enemy unit you'll also know if you fail the charge. That said you'd then know if you came within 8" of them. I maintain that the rule says shortest ranged weapon and as no dice have been rolled all weapon systems can fire, if you wanna play it that a charger outside 15+" is harder to hit because of the long range then fine, the pistol will still shoot at 12" so all crossbow shots will have a 17% less chance of hitting. Our groupl plays it to the shortest ranged weapon, any TO's I've spoken with play it that way and I've NEVER had anyone argue the point of it's within the maximum range of the weapon. Haven't we already established the longest charge in the game is 27" so will always be within the maximum range of ANY charge Regards Greg
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 25, 2017 16:31:08 GMT
There may have been some FAQ released about the shortest range weapon thing?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2017 16:42:35 GMT
No. I looked at the FAQ there's nothing in there clarifying this issue
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Aug 25, 2017 16:45:59 GMT
As I said, we play it as per the shortest weapon range.
It's a good discussion but I don't think I can convince others in my group to change what is actually a very simple one line rule.
Greg
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 25, 2017 22:08:57 GMT
Greg, you keep ignoring "against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range."
Ref FvonSigmaringen: No, I'm not ignoring it, I get the idea that if outside the maximum range of the weapon system you'll have to wait until in range before firing. However you shoot before any dice are rolled. Lets say a unit of Dwarves are armed with throwing axes and a unit of cavalry wish to charge them from 18" away. (they'll need an 11) the dwarves can still S&S, the cavalry player rolls, fails the charge and moves I dunno, 6 inches. They're now 12" away and still out of effective weapon range but you're still allowed to make a S&S. it says you can declare it even if outside the maximum range. It's one of the few parts of the game that's fluid and happens simultaneously. Even combat is usually decided in initiative order. I still maintain that however you read it in black and white it says units shortest range weapon. You don't work out distances of the charger unit after the S&S has been resolved so the actual range of any weapon is irrelevant – it’s whether or not the charge is of legal distance and can be declared, the only thing you should worry about is arc of fire and other modifiers should they apply. I think you’re hung up on the outside maximum range thing, I read it as I’m allowed to even if your outside the weapon range. Normally these shots would obviously miss. I'm thinking a bit along the lines of how fanatics work. You charge a unit but have to stop at 8" and they're now released. After they're released you can continue your charge. I guess though having rolled to see if you can make it to the enemy unit you'll also know if you fail the charge. That said you'd then know if you came within 8" of them. I maintain that the rule says shortest ranged weapon and as no dice have been rolled all weapon systems can fire, if you wanna play it that a charger outside 15+" is harder to hit because of the long range then fine, the pistol will still shoot at 12" so all crossbow shots will have a 17% less chance of hitting. Our groupl plays it to the shortest ranged weapon, any TO's I've spoken with play it that way and I've NEVER had anyone argue the point of it's within the maximum range of the weapon. Haven't we already established the longest charge in the game is 27" so will always be within the maximum range of ANY charge Regards Greg Most of what you argue there is not in dispute. Indeed, I myself was the first to point those out. For instance, I have continously stressed that range is not relevant, because in S&S the charging unit is assumed to be in range. But although you agree that range is not relevant, you still say that "you'll have to wait until in range before firing." And although you have to admit that charge rolls have no role to play, and are thus completely irrelevant, you still feel the need to bring them up in your examples. The example of the Fanatics is equally irrrlevant for this issue. And yes, you still ignore the first part, because you do not apply it to the resolution of the shooting. Again irrelevant. The issue is not the longest charge range, but the the firing unit's maximum range. The theoretical maximum charge range has no relevance other than to show that the greater the firing unit's maximum range, the less likely it is that the rule will apply. This is not a case of RAW versus RAI, nor does it need an FAQ (and now, of course, there never will be), because the rules as they are are clear. They just do not say what some people think they should say. As I said before, the problem is that people take this from a fluff perspective, not a game perspective. They have an image of Agincourt perhaps, the gun positions of Balaklawa, herds of wild Gorbeasts sweeping majestically.... And then they try to shoehorn the rules into that image with arguments that have little to no basis in anything written in the BRB. It should not really be that difficult. The most important thing to remember is that (BRB p. 17) - "If a Stand and Shoot charge reaction is declared, the unit makes a normal, although out of sequence, shooting attack against the charging unit."
The rules expressis verbis tell you to treat it as a normal shooting attack. So, simply do what you do during any other normal shooting attack in the shooting phase. That means you apply all the relevant rules and modifiers, unless, of course, specified otherwise. And what are those specified exceptions? - 1. You add an additional negative modifier
2. The charging unit is always assumed to be in range 3. If the enemy unit starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range, shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon. Other than that, there are no exceptions. I said it should not be that difficult - but I have learned that the actual rules have a very difficult stand against "we have always played it like that." Again, if both sides agree, feel free to houserule it that way, that is perfectly allright. But that is what it will be: a houserule.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Aug 25, 2017 22:20:33 GMT
Ref FvonSigmaringen: No, I'm not ignoring it, I get the idea that if outside the maximum range of the weapon system you'll have to wait until in range before firing. However you shoot before any dice are rolled. Lets say a unit of Dwarves are armed with throwing axes and a unit of cavalry wish to charge them from 18" away. (they'll need an 11) the dwarves can still S&S, the cavalry player rolls, fails the charge and moves I dunno, 6 inches. They're now 12" away and still out of effective weapon range but you're still allowed to make a S&S. it says you can declare it even if outside the maximum range. It's one of the few parts of the game that's fluid and happens simultaneously. Even combat is usually decided in initiative order. I still maintain that however you read it in black and white it says units shortest range weapon. You don't work out distances of the charger unit after the S&S has been resolved so the actual range of any weapon is irrelevant – it’s whether or not the charge is of legal distance and can be declared, the only thing you should worry about is arc of fire and other modifiers should they apply. I think you’re hung up on the outside maximum range thing, I read it as I’m allowed to even if your outside the weapon range. Normally these shots would obviously miss. I'm thinking a bit along the lines of how fanatics work. You charge a unit but have to stop at 8" and they're now released. After they're released you can continue your charge. I guess though having rolled to see if you can make it to the enemy unit you'll also know if you fail the charge. That said you'd then know if you came within 8" of them. I maintain that the rule says shortest ranged weapon and as no dice have been rolled all weapon systems can fire, if you wanna play it that a charger outside 15+" is harder to hit because of the long range then fine, the pistol will still shoot at 12" so all crossbow shots will have a 17% less chance of hitting. Our groupl plays it to the shortest ranged weapon, any TO's I've spoken with play it that way and I've NEVER had anyone argue the point of it's within the maximum range of the weapon. Haven't we already established the longest charge in the game is 27" so will always be within the maximum range of ANY charge Regards Greg Most of what you argue there is not in dispute. Indeed, I myself was the first to point those out. For instance, I have continously stressed that range is not relevant, because in S&S the charging units is assumed to be in range. But although you agree that range is not relevant, you still say that "you'll have to wait until in range before firing." And although you have to admit that charge rolls have no role to play, and are thus completely irrelevant, you still feel the need to bring them up in your examples. The example of the Fanatics is equally irrrlevant for this issue. And yes, you still ignore the first part, because you do not apply it to the resolution of the shooting. Again irrelevant. The issue is not the longest charge range, but the the firing unit's maximum range. The theoretical maximum charge range has no relevance other than to show that the greater the firing unit's maximum range, the less likely it is that the rule will apply. This is not a case of RAW versus RAI, nor does it need an FAQ (and now, of course, there never will be), because the rules as they are are clear. They just do not say what some people think they should say. As I said before, the problem is that people take this from a fluff perspective, not a game perspective. They have an image of Agincourt perhaps, the gun positions of Balaklawa, herds of wild Gorbeasts sweeping majestically.... And then they try to shoehorn the rules into that image with arguments that have little to no basis in the anything written in the BRB. It should not really be that difficult. The most important thing to remember is that (BRB p. 17) - "If a Stand and Shoot charge reaction is declared, the unit makes a normal, although out of sequence, shooting attack against the charging unit."
The rules expressis verbis tell you to treat it as a normal shooting attack. So, simply do what you do during any other normal shooting attack in the shooting phase. That means you apply all the relevant rules and modifiers, unless, of course, specified otherwise. And what are those specified exceptions? - 1. You add an additional negative modifier
2. The charging unit is always assumed to be in range 3. If the enemy unit starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range, shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon. Other than that, there are no exceptions. I said it should not be that difficult - but I have learned that the actual rules have a very difficult stand against "we have always played it like that." Again, if both sides agree, feel free to houserule it that way, that is perfectly allright. But that is what it will be: a houserule. I disagree on the statement that it isn't a RAW vs. RAI situation, especially if you take into account that most shooting in the game is equal to or greater than the more common charge ranges. This is not irrelevant. I understand the straight reading of the rules, but it actually comes off as odd. It is also curious that most use the shortest ranged weapon and no FAQ exists to dispute. As long as all parties agree, it is good.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 25, 2017 22:39:26 GMT
As I speculated above, the intent may exactly have been to give shorter range units a small boost for balance. But that is pure speculation, just as any other RAI appeal. In general, RAW=RAI. Appealing to RAI is rather moot, as we have no way of knowing what the intent is, other than expressed in the RAW. Indeed, there are concrete examples of FAQ showing that GW itself did not know the intent, or even ruled against the intent. If we look at the example of the RRR above: gregwarhamster still thinks it probably was not intended - which may or may not be correct, but which is certainly moot.
In my opinion, RAI are mainly valid in two cases: - The intent is stated in the rule (and thus ipso facto RAW) - Whatever else, all rules are intended to be playable. If there is no way the rule can be applied, then obviously, the intent was not fulfilled.
If a rule is clearly written and playable - as is the case here - there is no deed to appeal to RAI.
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