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Post by KevinC on Nov 1, 2015 1:31:23 GMT
Yes.
S6 impact hits are pretty deadly on top of the normal attacks. Daemons are tough to crack in general. What you add a bit more detail about how the Bretonnians were ineffective? Charging into a large unit of Plaguebearers to touch, especially with their -1 To Hit rule.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 4, 2015 1:48:16 GMT
That was part of it, for sure. The thing is this. Most T3 base S3 armies have access to something that can make armies like Dwarfs, Ogres and Nurgle Daemons worried. Brettonians have no blackpowder and only a Trebuchet for high strength shooting. As a dwarf player I would hate to rely on only grudgethrowers.
Their knights don't frighten me. The 1+ as Empire knights are more worrisome. I would play against this army as much as possible.
Again, I worry that the new list will over rely on the foot troops, and that really feels like an Empire army with different clothing. What about Devastating Charge?
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Nov 4, 2015 2:22:43 GMT
The Bret list as written was devastating against Warriors. Keep in mind he has maybe 6 impact hits at S6, wounding...killing warriors on 2s. That's 6 dead guys before they even get to strike. With their high point cost that's probably a third of the unit dead. That is one example but I just wanted to make sure that people see how gross those knights were to elite infantry.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 4, 2015 22:52:45 GMT
I have fought them as written 3 times. Once with each of my armies. First off, Rich, the impact hits came after Kevin removed the 6 wide Horde. Barring that, are you telling me that Khorne Warriors fighting back with the number of attacks they can bring didn't crush. If not, then it is bad dice. My statement isn't that they can't hurt, I'm saying they just don't hurt enough given the way 8th works against them. Danny wounded 5 plague bearers with impact and then another 4 in CC. The problem is that I made my ward save on 3 of them, killed 3 knights with my attacks, held from steadfast and then proceeded to wipe them up in future rounds. They are not an army to worry about. Put the disruption back in and I might have had to worry more.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 4, 2015 23:07:29 GMT
The version with Disruption hurt my armies more than this one.
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Post by KevinC on Nov 5, 2015 13:59:23 GMT
avatarofbugman, I completely understand your arguments. My plan is to have draft III up next month, but I feel there has not been enough playtest games against a wide arrange of armies in order to decide which special rule is best for Bretonnian Knights. Everything in still on the table for consideration. If anyone out there can do some more playtesting and provide feedback, in particular to how knights perform, it would be much appreciated. Thanks.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 5, 2015 19:07:39 GMT
Fair enough. I can only tell you about the three games against my three armies.
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Post by KevinC on Nov 5, 2015 22:55:05 GMT
Duly noted avatar, it will not go unrecognized!
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Post by robertidaniel on Nov 9, 2015 20:33:18 GMT
First of all, hello everyone - that's my first post on this fine forum. Kevin - many thanks to you for all your work, i really love it.
So, to give you some constructive feedack: the book is great but i would love to see virtues and some new magic items. You can find below a list of magical items that me and my friends prepared for our house rules. I'm not sure whether they can be used with your rules as they me be unbalanced but hopefully they will inspire you to create something new.
So, when it comes to playtesting, yesterday me an my friend have played bretonnians vs vampire counts.
Here are our observations: 1. Impact hits are pretty devastating sometimes but when knights charge against large blocks of infantry (or skeletons for that matter) they just get stuck and are methodically butchered. 2. The lack of lance formation results in lack of static combat resoultion bonuses - 12 knights used to have 3 ranks, now they only have one rank so it's hard to win prolonged combat. S4 allow them to chop zombies and skeletons pretty well but one turn of bad dice rolls results in rout. 3. Grail Knights are overpriced - i think 50 points would be enough for them. 2 wounds makes them great warriors though - 6 of them charging 5 blood knights and a vampire literally wiped out the whole unit. 4. Pauper Knights and Dread Knights are awesome and fit in bretonnian lore pretty well. Though during our play they didn't do much harm (Dread Knights tried pretty hard slaying a lot of grave guards before being wiped out) but we both agreed that they have a lot of potential. 5. Grail war chapel needs to cast it's harmonic convergance automatically or in some other way than the bound spell. With magic-heavy army like vampires it is impossible benefit form it and chapel becomes pretty much useless the way it is now. Truth yo be told, it is a general problem with bound spells in 8th edition. 6. And last - could you add Gilles le Breton as a special character?
Next in line is battle against the Empire.
Sword of the Lady’s Champion 80 pts (Magic Weapon) Armor Piercing. The wielder wounds always on To Wound roll of 2+. Multiple wounds (2).
Heartwood Lance 40 pts (Magic Weapon) Heartwood Lance provides +2 strength on the charge. The wielder of the Heartwood Lance may reroll all failed to wound rolls and gains Killing Blow special rule.
Morningstar of Fracasse 30 pts (Magic Weapon) +2 strength in first round of combat. Wielder gains Hatred (Wizards) special rule. For every attack that hits, if enemy possess magical weapon, roll D6. On a roll of 6 this item is destroyed. If enemy possesses more than one magical weapon choose randomly which one is destroyed.
Glided Cuirass 50 pts (Magic Armor) 5+ armour save. Character equipped with Gilded Cuirass improves it’s Ward save gained from the Blessing of the Lady to 4+. At the start of every bretonnian turn, roll a D6. On a roll of 5+ bearer regains one wound lost previously in the battle, up to his starting value.
Gromrill Great Helm 30 pts (Magic Armor) Character equipped with the Gromrill Great helm counts it’s armor save as two points higher than normal, up to 1+. Moreover, bearer may reroll all failed armor saves. Against models form Orcs&Goblins armybook, bearer cause Fear.
Lady’s Sacred Water 15 pts (Talisman) One use only. Declare you are using the Lady’s Sacred Water at the beginning of the charge phase. The user gains Devastating Charge and Hatred special rules until the next bretonnian movement phase.
Insignia of the Quest 30 pts (Knight with Questing Vow only) (Enchanted Item) Bearer gains Blessing of the Lady ward save 5+ regardless of the strength of the attack. In addition, whenever the bearer would suffer the number of unsaved wounds that would kill him (including wounds from Killing Blow, Heroic Killing Blow and Multiple Wounds special rules) reduce the bearer to one wound and take Strength test. If the test is passed, rest of the wounds are discarded. After that, the power of insignia fades and it may not be used for the rest of the battle. The bearer retains his improved Ward save though.
Chalice of Malfleur 40 pts (Arcane Item) Bearer gains +1 to dispel rolls. At the beginning of enemy magic phase, bearer may drink from the chalice. When she does so, she loses 1 wound with no saves of any kind allowed but gains +1 dispel dice.
Falcon horn of Fredemund 40 pts (Enchanted Item) One use only. Character equipped with a horn may sound it on the beginning of any bretonnian turn. To the beginning of the next bretonnian turn any enemy model with “Fly” special rule cannot move. If charged such models may only elect hold reaction.
Banner of the Lady 75 pts (Magic Banner) Every enemy unit in contact with Battle standard bearer and his unit count as having no ranks for the purpose of combat resolution. Moreover, unit equipped with the Banner of the Lady cause Fear.
Standard of Chalons 45 pts (Magic Banner) Unit equipped with this banner improve its Blessing of the Lady Ward save against shooting attacks and magic missiles to 4+ Ward save. Additionally, enemy unit may not choose to stand and shoot if charged by unit with Standard of Chalons.
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Post by KevinC on Nov 9, 2015 20:45:47 GMT
robertidaniel, Welcome to the forum and thank you so much for your feedback! One reason this project is moving slowly is because I need more feedback and play test games. So thank you, please keep them coming. I'm hoping to post a new draft (draft III) next month (probably late December rather than early though). You def have some interesting feedback in there, thanks. I will be examine it further. Please let me know how the Empire game goes... Thanks,
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Post by robertidaniel on Nov 23, 2015 22:12:18 GMT
So, quick news about game against the empire.
As i don't have time right now, i'll post only a few observations from the game and more detailed descraption soon after.
We've played 3500 pts scenario.
What we observed: - Grail knights are really too expensive - they were wiped out before reaching the empire line. To mek them some justice though - the've soaked up most of the empire firepower. - Knights are extremly powerful on the charge - errants and realms parked in 40 halberdiers and raped the whole unit in two rounds of combat with little casualties. Though a while after both unit were routed after the counter-charge of Knightl'y Orders. - Trebuchets are well priced - though in our game they were shooting with little effect, one well placed boudler basically eliminated the steam tank. - Dread Knights are so cool! Though not much better than ordinary Knight of the Realm, they were able to take the charge of knightly orders and afetr 10 vs 10 battle they routed the empire knights, fear making the difference. - Sellswords - though they seem nice choice, they are inferior to pauper knights and even man at arms in many ways. I think their skills are little overpriced and they definitly could use some more (poisons of frenzy for example).
Well, thats it for now, i'll right something more about our game soon.
Cheers!
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Post by KevinC on Nov 24, 2015 1:54:29 GMT
Thanks for the report Robert! I look forward to more detailed results.
I plan on releasing the 3rd draft next month at some point (probably later than sooner).
Thanks for the comments.
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