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Post by knoffles on Jan 9, 2018 6:05:48 GMT
That unit of trolls is just frightening! Looks like an amazing game, there is something special about seeing games of that size and I’ve always thought that 8th more so than any other edition, was built to scale up to epic battles. How long did it take to play in the end?
Also, did you each just have 1 general and 1 bsb? Similar size games I’ve seen before had a bsb/general for each flank and the overall commander/army standard in the centre. That might have helped the number of terror/panic tests he failed.
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Post by mottdon on Jan 9, 2018 16:26:11 GMT
Love it! Yeah, I was a bit surprised by the lack of artillery too. I thought there would be 10 Cannons focusing on your DP! Lol! It is really cool seeing so many troops out there. Nice to see Spearmen being used as well! Too bad they fled off the table. His characters seemed to perform fairly well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 16:56:17 GMT
I really was expecting around 6 cannons plus the stanks. When I showed up and saw that he took 0 well...I knew that I would have an ok time of it. We set up the night before, took about 2 hours to get everything out of the totes and set up. Game play started around 8a and we played until around 7p. We got in 5 game turns. Took everything down the next day, as I really wasn't feeling up to the task of putting all those models away after playing so long. It's really nice to have access to a garage where we can leave everything set up We played with a single general for the entire force; I had to make do with a 12" inspiring presence and a 12" hold your ground. He at least had a 24" inspiring presence with Karl Franz, but yes, we needed more. I think it's a good idea moving forward knoffles to have lieutenants and sub bsb's for different areas of the battlefield to help ease the LD pains that accompany such large forces. I'm planning to have Archaon in the future though to lead the army. 10,000 points is just asking for the head honcho himself in charge. It took me a couple turns, but when I eventually realized just how nasty those hellcannons would be against his infantry that weren't inside his generals LD bubble I started targeting them hoping to get his army to flee the table. And it worked I'll post the last couple turns of the game today, I'm still sorting through all the pictures that I took; there's a lot of them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 20:01:14 GMT
Empire Turn 4: Karl Franz once again fails a charge. He needed to roll a 10 he rolled a 7. Balthasar Gelt FAILS TO RALLY and continues to run greatswords charge the dragon ogres swordsmen on the extreme right flank are lined up perfectly for a flank charge on the marauders (silly me leaving them open like that) they fail their charge Empire Magic: Rolled a 4 & 2 Chaos channels 1 Empire channels 0 War Altar gets off banishment on my Chaos Sorcerer Lord: 10 hits, 8 wounds (these were S4) - I made all 8 armor saves Priest in the Greatswords tried to get off the shield spell (5+ ward) but I dispelled it Empire Shooting: Helblaster sneaks another wound onto the Chaos Sorcerer - saved it on the armor Hand gunners kill two knights - they panic Crossbows kill some ungor raiders - they panic Crossbows kill some Marauder Horsemen - they panic Empire Combat: I lied: THIS is the turn where the abomination finally knocks out the steamtank Chaos Warshrine beats the handgunners in combat, successfully restrains and reforms to face the Franz Chaos Lord + Chosen beat down the unit they're in combat with and catch them in an overrun Greatswords break and run down the dragon ogres - this panics the Chimera who begins to flee towards his troops on the right flank Gors continue to beat on the flagellants bsb manages to once again hold against the knights rolling a 3 on the reroll The Khorne Chaos Warriors finish off the flagellants
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 20:34:05 GMT
Chaos Turn 4: My Chaos lord and the trolls pass stupidity Trolls pass on their natural LD! (I rolled a 3 but they were in range of Throgg) Both Hellcannons successfully restrain Skullcrushers charge the newly reformed spearmen they broke previously Chaos Lord + Chosen Charge Karl Franz Khorne Chaos Warriors Charge the fleeing handgunners - they leave the table. Successfuly redirect brings them into the helblaster Chaos Sorcerer Lord charges fleeing Balthasar Gelt - he flees the table - successful redirect puts the Sorcerer Lord into combat with the Helblaster Throgg Charges out of the Trolls and into the flank of the Knights - the trolls couldn't fit because the Marauder Horsemen were in the way Doombull and a Razorgor charge the War Altar - this was a waste of a razorgor as I came to realize as the Doombull HAS to challenge in this list so it sat there doing nothing. Chimera RALLIES! (he's ld5) Chaos Knights rally General Advancing/positioning Chaos Magic: I don't have my notes for this phase! Looking at the pictures it looks like I got off transmutation of lead on the Reiksguard knights. Pretty sure I tried for enchanted blades again on the bsb but that was successfully dispelled. Chaos Shooting: Hellcannons and the Warp Lightning Cannon all turn their attention to infantry and kill all but 1 of the greatswords and a slew of handgunners. The handgunners panic and flee the table. There used to be handgunners here. Chaos Combat: My Chaos Lord steps forward and issues a challenge to Karl Franz. Karl cannot refuse. I have ASF from the Helm of Many Eyes. 5 attacks hit. 4 attacks wound. Hellfire sword ignores armor. He saves 3 of the wounds on the Ward. Hellfire sword does D3 wounds. I rolled a 3! And just like that Karl goes unceremoniously down. I rolled +1 S on the EotG for my Chaos Lord. Deathclaw enrages and now hates my Chaos Lord. He manages 1 W against him in retaliation. Deathclaw breaks and is run down by my Chosen/Chaos Lord. Throgg issues a challenge. In retrospect I should have issued the challenge with the bsb and let Throgg wail on the knights. The unit champ accepts the challenge from Throgg. Throgg murders him many times over with his S8 great weapon. He rolls +1T on the EotG in return. My bsb is in combat with the two remaining characters in that unit (the runefang dude and the bsb dude). I THINK I put a wound on the runefang dude at this step. He passes his break test and sticks around. Runefang dude puts a wound on the bsb here too it seems. My Doombull puts 1W on the priest and 1W on the altar. I take no wounds in return. He holds. Khorne warriors butcher the helblaster crew and both units overrun. The Sorcerer goes first and gets out of the way so the warriors can overrun into the swordsmen that have rallied behind the woods. Skullcrushers obliterate the remaining spearmen and overrun into the handgunners EDIT: there's also a solo razorgor in the background of the troll combat fighting some halberdiers at this point. I believe it was here that the halberdiers finally managed to kill the razorgor!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 23:36:50 GMT
Empire Turn 5: Doombull gets flanked by a unit of swordsmen Chosen get flanked by a unit of halberdiers A Greatsword with his two accompanying characters charge two hounds Empire Magic: 4 & 2 Neither side channels Gets off the reroll wounds on the War Altar Irresistibles Shield of Faith on the War Altar Empire Shooting: I didn't take any notes I don't think anything of note happened here Empire Combat: Reiksguard lose a lot of models thanks to Throggs breath weapon and his great weapon. Bsb challenges and Kurt "Runefang dude" Hellborg accepts. I did 1W to him and saved the two wounds he caused on me. It took me like 3 rounds of combat but I've previously killed Luthor Huss in a challenge with my bsb! (forgot to mention) Doombull kills the Priest mounted on the Altar but he loses combat and is run down by the flanking swordsmen Skullcrushers kill some handgunners Empire character party kills the two dogs and reforms
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 23:49:24 GMT
Chaos Turn 5: Chimera charges handgunner detachment and ends up pursuing them off the table when they flee in terror I had wanted my hellpit to make contact with the swordsmen on the right flank but it was not to be this game Daemon Prince charges the swordsmen that broke and ran down the Doombull Chaos Knights charge the crossbows razorgor charges the Empire Character party Chaos Magic: 2 & 2 Empire channel 1 Chaos channels 0 Successfully dispels enchanted blades on the bsb I get off curse of the leper on the knights - roll a 1 for the T debuff Chaos Shooting: Hellcannons leave 2 crossbowmen left and 4 handgunners fleeing Warp Lightning Cannon tries for the swordsmen on the right flank but ends up passing through the unit (claiming like 4-5 guys) and blows up a few inches behind the unit despite aiming at a spot 14" from the back of the unit (lots of 8's and 10's) Chaos Combat: Chaos Knights break the crossbow unit and run them down. This panics the other crossbow unit who flee the table. bsb kills Kurt Hellborg in the challenge and Throgg whiffs and kills 1 knight this round. game called here.
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Post by knoffles on Jan 10, 2018 15:12:10 GMT
Epic mate.
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Post by mottdon on Jan 11, 2018 13:50:06 GMT
See, this is why I hate playing WoC. The BSB kills both Luthor Huss and Kurt Helborg?!? Not to mention holding up a big block of knight all by himself! That's just shouldn't ever happen. This is why I and none of my friends ever play WoC. That sort of thing is common with them, which screams "broken" to me.
I love that you played a huge game like this, but it looks like it was totally one-sided. Did you even lose one unit? I don't recall seeing any losses. (They may be in there somewhere, but it's hard to keep track of all the action.)
Glad you enjoyed yourself though! I'm also glad that you found a buddy to play!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 18:31:39 GMT
The bsb got lucky, I rolled a 3 on my break test for 3 turns in a row. I was convinced he was dead that first round, it's how I usually lose them. He's a standard so the second he breaks from combat he's gone. I can't stress enough just how lucky I got with him.
That bsb is also WS7, S5 T5 with 3W (thanks Daemonic Steed) and 4A, better than a lot of armies Lords choices. Is it really a surprise that he was able to kill those characters? Or is this just a complaint about WoC heroes being the equivalent/better than the Empires Lord choices? Considering the background/lifestyle of WoC is it really a surprise that an individual who spends his entire life fighting/seeking out powerful foes to best in single combat has such good stats?
I lost the Dragon Ogres to the greatswords, the clanrats/grey seer to two units of Demigryphs and a warshrine to a unit of free company. I also lost all my chaff units, most of the Gors, most of the Khorne Warriors, a few chosen and a few Tzeentch Warriors.
If anything I just think this game shows that Empire can't hope to go toe to toe with Chaos Warriors and expect to come out on top. He brought 2 Stanks (who were in combat by his turn 2) and 2 helblasters as his only artillery and a single lvl 4 mage (admittedly a good one, but where was his light council? where was his life mage healing stanks/demis/Luthor/Kurt? Where was his shadowmage lowering my stats/making his troops hit at S7/8/9?).
I'll tone it down next time, although I was just bringing everything I have that's painted so right now my choices are limited. Archaon himself will take to the field next time I hope as well as a larger Skaven contingent. I'll also probably push for a 4D6 magic phase so that he's able to have more dice for prayers and other things.
I was expecting more artillery hence the size of my trolls and skullcrushers. I'll certainly take smaller units of those next time as well.
I personally love WoC. I always have.
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Post by Naitsabes on Jan 11, 2018 18:52:21 GMT
poor misunderstood WoC. just wanted to chip in and say they are fine! the few harsh combos (a BSB kitted that way being a prime example) should be diluted out in a bigger game...or the WoC player just applies some restraint, sounds like ryrak is headed that way. To me bigger units are part of the attraction of bigger games and a giant troll horde isn't 'broken' at all.
Empire can go toe-to-toe with WoC units in close combat but, they do need the various buffs (the wagons, priest for hatred, captain for 'hold the line' and of course spells). That tends to be harder to pull off than pushing a badass WoC unit forward. (although, I appreciate there is more to it for WoC as well, you need to put some thought into angles and chaff use etc.).
of course in a single game dice can go rogue and make it too one-sided. Just keep at it, get used to each other's preferred level of 'beardedness' and the games will get even better. oh, and paint some miniatures for an even grander looking spectacle. carry on!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 19:06:32 GMT
His buff wagons were my #1 priority for the hellcannons. After they were dead it was trying to snipe the griffon out from under his general (take away that mobility and 6" of his inspiring presence) and panicking units outside his generals LD bubble. 2 of those 3 things managed to happen although I got lucky this game as well as I didn't roll a SINGLE misfire all game across 3 pieces of artillery! (that probably just means that next game they'll do absolutely nothing) Thanks for the understanding Naitsabes . At that point size I really thought that any single unit "cheesiness" would be diluted down due to the size of the game. And I REALLY thought I would be going up against 5-6 cannons with attached engineers so I tried to plan accordingly. Hence my only solo characters having a 3+ ward save and the size of my greatest perceived threats (skullcrushers and trolls) were large enough to take some casualties going in and still be in decent fighting shape. I sincerely hope that he changes up his list and makes some changes for our next game that we play.
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Post by mottdon on Jan 11, 2018 19:43:29 GMT
I know I come off rather harsh on WoC. Most of my friends know I joke about pretty much everything and not to take me too seriously, but I need to be careful as to how I sound on the internet without inflection or tone. Sorry. I suppose what hits me as just being "wrong" (if there can be such a thing) is that Luthor Huss, Kurt Helborg and Karl Franz (on Deathclaw none the less) were all taken out like common foot soldiers. They're supposed to be the best of the best! It should be MUCH harder to kill them. Anyone armed with a Runefang or Ghal Maraz should be taking guys out left and right. Theoretically. I know that's just the way the dice roll sometimes though. It just seems as though it's more common than not with WoC. It was also your opponent's fault for not taking any cannons. BIG MISTAKE. And even though the regular State Troops can hold their own when properly buffed, there's only so many buff wagons that can be nearby and so many power dice to cast all of the magic to support a 10K sized army. That means WoC automatically have the advantage. I think if he had invested a few more points in characters (Captains, etc.) to raise the average Ld values for units that would be out of Karl's inspiring presence, then he might've done a bit better as well. He also had a ton of Pistoliers/Outriders! I've only ever seen two units of either on a board before! It probably would've helped him if he took some Flagellants as well. Those guys die in the dozens, but man! They can pack a punch! Plus, they're unbreakable and buff themselves. Again, sorry if I was rude. I don't mean to be mean!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 20:20:18 GMT
Haha he took two units of 30ish flagellants! They're the reasons the Khorne Warriors only had 7 models left at the end of the game and why the Gors suffered so many casualties (I lost roughly 30 Gors to those flagellants over the 3 rounds of combat it took me to carve through them). He actually griped a lot about that bsb too. A big unit of Reiksguard knights (somewhere between 15 and 20) plus Kurt, Luthor and the bsb guy were held up for 3 turns by a "lowly" bsb who refused to break. I totally get it I do, but that was a fluke and I don't expect it to ever happen again. Most of the time my bsbs break from combat and are run down; whenever I lose bsb's THAT's how I lose them I don't think I've ever had them killed due to actual combat wounds. To be fair, Karl Franz died in combat to a Chaos Lord; one that didn't have a ward save of any kind I might add I went all offense on him. Had I not been lucky and rolled a 3 for those D3 wounds I absolutely would have expected Karl to pulp him with that Ghal Maraz that he was wielding. To be honest I would have preferred that; WATCH ME LEAD BY EXAMPLE! WHY IS MY ENTIRE ARMY CRUMBLING! LOOK AT ME PULP THEIR GENERAL AND HIS RETINUE WITH MY FANCY HAMMER! It also doesn't help that he failed two charges in a row (needing average/below average numbers on the dice) against the targets that he would have preferred and instead ended up fighting (in the flank no less) a unit he probably wanted to avoid. All this is really doing though is getting me excited for the rematch I think adopting a 4D6 magic system ala Storm of Magic is a good idea for a game this size. We both needed more dice to do all the stuff we wanted to do across the battlelines. My grey seer never even attempted to cast a spell. EDIT: I didn't think you were rude don't worry about it. WoC have a special place in my heart though so I will absolutely defend them when I can. I will admit though that the one-dimensional playstyle the book forces on you (the units can and often do change, but the playstyle doesn't) can make fighting with/against them boring after a while. This is another reason I'm looking forward to getting more skaven and hopefully some daemons done before our next game; the more "other" armies I get in the list the more different the fight becomes!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 20:25:32 GMT
Also I have a question that came up: If a stank is required to take an I test does it test on the I of the engineer? That's what we both came to the consensus of but it doesn't make a lot of sense that a TANK can dodge out of the way of objects as nimbly as a human can.
Maybe this was answered in the FAQ I'll go take a look now.
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