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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 11, 2019 15:32:09 GMT
Well, in my view, mixing reality and the rules of a fantasy game is the opposite of common sense.
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Post by vulcan on Jul 11, 2019 16:38:21 GMT
Well, in my view, mixing reality and the rules of a fantasy game is the opposite of common sense. At the same time, verisimilitude ADDS to the gaming experience. We accept the unreal (say, dragons flying around and breathing fire) because we have no living examples. We generally do NOT accept 'the guy with the ginormous two-handed hammer hitting the guy with the 12'spear first' because we DO know how enormous two-handed hammers and spears work. Although allowing the ginormous two-handed hammer in the first place is definitely fantasy, because even weightlifters would be hard pressed to fight with a mere twelve-pound sledge. This falls in the same category. Or perhaps we could just go with the oldest rule. If you can find someone stupid enough to allow you to play this the way you want it, be my guest. Far be it from me to get in the way of your fun. Just don't expect ME to allow it.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 11, 2019 16:53:21 GMT
Actually, we DO accept 'the guy with the ginormous two-handed hammer hitting the guy with the 12'spear first' , for instance in the case of HE, DE and all others with the ASF special rule and high enough Initiative, and in previous editions everyone on the charge. That is dependent on a rule of the game, and a chariot with the FC special rule would be exactly the same.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 11, 2019 16:58:02 GMT
And if I am allowed to quote myself here: To repeat what I said earlier: I am all for verisimilitude (to the point I don't shoot gunpowder weapons through my units), but ultimately, game rules cannot, don't, and don't have to be an accurate reflection of reality.
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Post by vulcan on Jul 11, 2019 17:14:47 GMT
Like I said, if you can find a fool to let you to do it, be my guest. It's so against common sense don't expect it to happen often.
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 11, 2019 17:22:49 GMT
I can’t believe that ridiculous interpretation is being brought over here. Chariots don’t have the Fast Cavalry rule, so they aren’t Fast Cavalry. Steeds for Chariots aren’t mounts for Chariots. If you look at the special rules for steeds of slaanesh, in the demon book, it lists : demon of slaanesh, demonic, Fast Cavalry, poisoned attacks. If you look at the special rules for the seeker chariot it says : demon of slaanesh, demonic, poisoned attacks (steed of slaanesh only). It doesn’t mention Fast Cavalry because they specifically didn’t intend for a chariot to have that rule. The Orc and Goblin book has been out for 8 years, and this is the first time some moron has wondered if their Wolf Chariots should have Fast Cavalry. Come on! Not sure why you need to be all bugger upp about it. When in a rules thread. We discuss rules. Either quote brb and join in or sit down and read others interpretation of quoting the rules while eating popcorn :/ it’s not personal, it’s rules written in a book with amendments from FAQs. It’s a game and not you personal interpretation of how a battle should be. Feel free to play anyway you want with your friends though. Not sure about the FAQ date but I guess it was not the first update changing the mount rules. So not that strange it has not been discussed earlier(or maybe it has). If its possible to throw a fireball then it’s definitely possible to make a swift/vanguard chariot that can feign fight. See fluff can go anyway. Try mounting a chariot behind wolfs to begin with. Some magic fantasy shenanigans is going on there. But this doesn’t really matter does it?
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Post by 1plussave on Jul 11, 2019 17:39:51 GMT
Anyone with an Orcs and Goblins, High Elves, Dark elves or Daemons rulebook could have taken 5 minutes and 3 unit entries to find the answer to this question, a look at an Empire rulebook might have helped too.
Yes chariots can have Fast Cavalry, the FAQ clarifies this. On the same coin, differrent side; No there isn't a single army book that actually has Fast Cavalry in the Special rules of its Chariots. The Chariot/Steed/Mount Distinction Argument is Semantics and doesn't really matter as to which one needs the rule.
Trying to claim that instances of Character mounts having Fast Cavalry somehow means that those rules are secretly transferred in the other instances of a Model Part with the same name holds no water; every other instance of special rules are translated more or less faithfully as relevant. Cold one chariots are Stupid and War Boar chariots have Tusker charge, but neither have Thick-Skinned because its not relevant. Same for Giant Wolves being Fast Cavalry on the mount, Wolf riders having it for the Unit and Wolf Chariots not having it at all but Fear Elves being kept on the Chariot and the Unit and the Boss/Shaman rider, with Animosity appearing only on the Unit (Orc/Goblin Characters Don't actually have Animosity and Chariot units cannot have enough models).
Empire Horses as a mount don't have Fast Cavalry but Pistoliers and Outriders do, with the rule listed the same way as the Wolf Riders as a whole unit rule, Same again for High Elven Steeds. Dark Steeds and the Seekers follow the same pattern as the Goblin; Rules for the Mount only, Similar Rules for the Unit only (With Rider/Mount distinctions) and then similar but with Specific rules removed for the Chariot.
Its not some big secret or revelation, its someone reading too much into a caveat that was never used. Then other people trying to claim secret special rules transfers when it would just make more sense to realise that the rules were deliberately omitted in different circumstances like normal.
The part about Swarms and Skirmishers was an infuriating false equivalency.
TL;DR. Okkam's Mindrazor: Die. Also the simplest explanation is probably the right one. The rule isn't there or attached by other rules/unit type, therefore it was not intended.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 11, 2019 19:59:02 GMT
Whether or not it was an infuriating false equivalence, nobody brought it up here. From what sheet are you reading?
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Post by 1plussave on Jul 11, 2019 20:02:12 GMT
Whether or not it was an infuriating false equivalence, nobody brought it up here. From what sheet are you reading? I saw the original face book argument, for anyone who was following it. It still annoys me. I couldn't remember if it had been part of this one so I added that in too.
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Post by knoffles on Jul 11, 2019 21:20:48 GMT
Whether or not it was an infuriating false equivalence, nobody brought it up here. From what sheet are you reading? On the original FB post the chap was trying to use swarms as an example of where the BRB had a rule for them (in this case skirmish) but the unit entry in the army book didn’t (he was looking at Tomb Kings). He was trying to show that just because a unit didn’t have a specific rule listed against it, didn’t mean they couldn’t have other rules impacting them (I think).
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Post by Horace on Jul 12, 2019 10:19:26 GMT
Haha especially when a simple shield is usually the tipping point to stop it being Fast Cav!
*I am fully aware the fluffiness has no bearing on the actual rules
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Post by DiscoQing on Jul 12, 2019 12:06:07 GMT
Depends on the type of metal... Mithril is meant to be light as a feather and as hard as steel? I'm sure the warhammer world is only based on Earthly physics, not 100% a reflection of it..
12ft spears can miss / be avoided (this is where ASF / Initiative / WS comes into play).
If a human soldier is S3 - I'm pretty sure I'm S2, lol.
So someone being S4+ must be RIPPED.
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 12, 2019 12:43:52 GMT
I demand a fast cavalry for wood elves! Not sure why we have fast cavalry to begin with as the term seams to be light and heavy cavalry. I guess it might have something to do with it’s a game of fantasy
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 13, 2019 20:28:18 GMT
On the original FB post the chap was trying to use swarms as an example of where the BRB had a rule for them (in this case skirmish) but the unit entry in the army book didn’t (he was looking at Tomb Kings). He was trying to show that just because a unit didn’t have a specific rule listed against it, didn’t mean they couldn’t have other rules impacting them (I think). As such, it is a valid remark. I could add here that the Equipment special rules are not included either. For instance, the Army List entry of Empire Spearmen does not contain the "Fighting in Extra Ranks" special rule; or the Empire Greatswords entry does not include the ASL special rule. I should think that this just indicates that special rules from Equipment and Troop Types, although applicable, are not included in the Special Rules entry. Of course, the “Cavalry and Special rules” we have been discussing is dependent on the Troop Type too! One could argue that this is the reason they are not listed in the Army Entries. . That said, I would like to add the following observations: - It should be noted that the BRB and the Erratum (2010) were dealing at the time only with 6th and 7th ABs. The first 8th AB came out 2011, and happened to be the O&G. - In general, the 8th Army Books do distinguish between special rules applying to the mount only, or the rider, or both. However, that does not seem always the case. For instance, the Stonehorn is both an independent unit (with Ogre Beast riders) and a character mount. The BRB p. 82 states "If either the rider or the mount have Frenzy, then the whole model is subject to the Berserk Rage, but only the element with the Frenzy rule gains an Extra Attack." Although according to the Stonehorn fluff, only the beast is frenzied, in the Stonehorn rules, Frenzy is a special rule of the whole Stonehorn model (including the Extra Attack). Ultimately, of course, rules>fluff. More relevant, therefore, to this discussion, in the Dark Elves AB description & AL entry for "Bloodwrack Medusa" as an independent unit, one will find the Frenzy special rule. However, when the same Bloodwrack Medusa is a mount for the Bloodwrack Shrine (a Chariot), the Frenzy special rule does not appear in the list. That leaves us with three different options: 1. The BRB rule is valid, and the Medusa Frenzy special rule applies to the whole model (with the exception of the extra Attack). Because the BRB rule applies, the entry does not repeat it (as expected, since it depends on Troop Type). 2. Only the Special Rule entry list is valid, but the Frenzy special rule was omitted by mistake. 3. Only the Special Rule entry list is valid, and the BRB rule does not apply. Based on the last example and for reasons of simplicity, I am now more inclined to think that for the 8th edition ABs the “Cavalry and Special Rules” only apply to character mounts, and any spells or special affects that would affect only rider or mount. Otherwise, only the special rules in the AL apply. And since the Fast Cavalry rule is not listed in the special rule entry of the Goblin Wolf or Scourgerunner Chariot, it does not apply.
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Post by KevinC on Jul 15, 2019 2:24:41 GMT
All, Goblin Wolf Chariots are not Fast Cav because they don't have the special rule. Giant Wolves also do not have the fast cav special rule, so they would not impact the chariot.
The unit called "Goblin Wolf Riders" have the fast cav special rule.
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