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Post by Lizards_of_Renown on Jul 28, 2022 22:11:49 GMT
I haven't played much Warhammer before 8th, but I am extremely frustrated with the way magic works, specifically the Pit of Shades/Dweller's Below style spells. There is only one guy in town who plays, and his usual strategy is to constantly six die those spells, thinking they are the best way to win the game. I find this to make the game pretty boring, since the result usually is either (1) its completely ineffective and his strategy falls apart or (2) its too effective and the game is over. He knows my opinion on this but won't change his playstyle. I don't know if I am missing something which I should be doing against this (please tell me if so); its starting to sour me to the edition specifically because of the magic phase. A scroll caddy can delay it for a round, but I don't think that's enough unless I am playing something like dwarves which can effectively take multiple ones. Just as an example, I got a new army I was trying out for the first time earlier today, and we ended up rolling Meeting Engagement where my wizard started off the table (had the Talisman of Preservation and the Book of Hoeth). He went first, and casted Dwellers on an elite infantry brick which ended up panicking off the table after half of them and my BSB were dead. Next turn he used it on my wizard's unit and killed them. His wizard has killed more than half of my army pointswise before my second turn. My advice would be reach out (using this forum and others) and see if you can find any others who you can play with. If after having had a chat with him he's still not will to change, then my opinion would be it's not worth it. I've had my fair share of these type of people and, having found friends I like playing with, sincerely advise you to do this. For me, Warhammer is all about enjoying playing the game. You want some good-sportsmanship types to play with and then it becomes a real blast.
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Post by Grimfang Gogulk on Jul 28, 2022 22:16:48 GMT
Sounds like the usual stupid asshole you have around these games. Not enough brain to think up anything - let alone combined arms.. Sad. I hope you find other players somehwere.
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Post by thegoat on Jul 28, 2022 22:37:33 GMT
There is only one guy in town who plays, and his usual strategy is to... I've run into many "win at all costs" gamers like that. Mostly in 40K. But also in Fantasy. Usually I just decline to ever play against them again. But if he is your only opponent, that might not be a viable solution. If you have multiple armies, maybe you can recruit a new player and let them use one of your armies. That way you can mould them to be a better opponent.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Jul 29, 2022 10:25:32 GMT
Naitsabes has provided some good ideas to counter this opponent's strategy, and devising a counter strategy to beat him will show him that his attempts to force a win won't get him anywhere, but on the other hand it could just increase his desire to win even more and prompt him to try ever more game-breaking army lists and combos, such that it becomes an arm's race between you. Instead, as with any other powergamer who tries to break 8th, or indeed any other wargame, so he can win, it's better off just refusing to play with him, especially in your case where you've voiced your discontent in the past and he's just ignored you. That will send a clear message that you don't like his attitude and if that if he really doesn't want to lose you as an opponent, he needs to sort his behaviour out.
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Post by KevinC on Jul 29, 2022 14:20:11 GMT
I haven't played much Warhammer before 8th, but I am extremely frustrated with the way magic works, specifically the Pit of Shades/Dweller's Below style spells. There is only one guy in town who plays, and his usual strategy is to constantly six die those spells, thinking they are the best way to win the game. I find this to make the game pretty boring, since the result usually is either (1) its completely ineffective and his strategy falls apart or (2) its too effective and the game is over. He knows my opinion on this but won't change his playstyle. I don't know if I am missing something which I should be doing against this (please tell me if so); its starting to sour me to the edition specifically because of the magic phase. A scroll caddy can delay it for a round, but I don't think that's enough unless I am playing something like dwarves which can effectively take multiple ones. Just as an example, I got a new army I was trying out for the first time earlier today, and we ended up rolling Meeting Engagement where my wizard started off the table (had the Talisman of Preservation and the Book of Hoeth). He went first, and casted Dwellers on an elite infantry brick which ended up panicking off the table after half of them and my BSB were dead. Next turn he used it on my wizard's unit and killed them. His wizard has killed more than half of my army pointswise before my second turn. --------I'd agree that if you have an opponent who's only tactic is to cast those big spells over and over again...it makes things boring and annoying. It's unfortunate that a conversation about it can't fix the situation. Here are my thoughts in regards: 1. Don't give up on WFB 8E. All WFB editions have parts about them that can be annoying. 6E, which has a decent following out there, has so many ways to abuse it...people can design entire armies to avoid combat (marching blocking your army), etc. 8E truly is the most balance. Even when you think of these powerful spells, your opponent typically needs a decent roll in the wind of magic phase. The random Winds of Magic balance things our a lot. 2. How long has your friend played? I find that most WFB players that rely on magic like your friend are new and/or are weak players, thus they rely on what seems like an easy tactic. Perhaps with more experience, he'll move on to other tactics... 3. In the mean time, I think you should adopt some extreme tactics to counter him. For example, place your powerful Wizard with a large unit in a building (the folding fortress perhaps), if one of those big spells hits you, your characters are safe and only D6 models are affected. Meanwhile you shoot up/magic your enemy from this high perch. Use his favorite spells against him. Maybe he'll get it... Remind him, WFB is a gentlemen's game.
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Post by thegoat on Jul 29, 2022 15:24:04 GMT
Use his favorite spells against him. Maybe he'll get it... I tried that with a player who would always bring overpowered deathstar units in 40K. After I tabled him with my own Khorne Bloodcrusher deathstar with beefed up herald etc., he still didn't understand the problem. To him it was just a Magic the Gathering style list building competition and he had to find a new combo/exploit to one-up my list.
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Post by burningriver on Jul 29, 2022 16:16:55 GMT
He has been playing for longer than me. He was one of the guys who worked on the old mod for Medieval 2. He likes making excuses like "If I didn't have this spell, then there is no way my faction could possibly beat yours."
Using Dwellers as an example, a level 4 wizard will consistently cast it when using 6 dice (average roll gives you the upcasted version) and you have a ~72% chance of getting at least 6 dice in a magic phase.
Doesn't hiding in a building only help if its a template? Enough of these spells aren't.
I've been slowly getting enough to host a game, but he is the only one within ~3 hour bus ride who plays (I'm too blind to drive), much less has the ability to host. I'm under the impression that WFB is pretty much dead in the country I live in outside of a handful of people.
I can try to do things to counter his strategy, but with his opinion on fairness, I can't but think that a game which doesn't have something like this is a better option with his style of play.
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Post by KevinC on Jul 29, 2022 17:37:29 GMT
He has been playing for longer than me. He was one of the guys who worked on the old mod for Medieval 2. He likes making excuses like "If I didn't have this spell, then there is no way my faction could possibly beat yours." Using Dwellers as an example, a level 4 wizard will consistently cast it when using 6 dice (average roll gives you the upcasted version) and you have a ~72% chance of getting at least 6 dice in a magic phase. Doesn't hiding in a building only help if its a template? Enough of these spells aren't. I've been slowly getting enough to host a game, but he is the only one within ~3 hour bus ride who plays (I'm too blind to drive), much less has the ability to host. I'm under the impression that WFB is pretty much dead in the country I live in outside of a handful of people. I can try to do things to counter his strategy, but with his opinion on fairness, I can't but think that a game which doesn't have something like this is a better option with his style of play. --------Those spells - purple sun and dwellers below are templates (Re: buildings, only D6 models are hit). Is he just getting lucky to a point (how many actual games have you played where this has happened?)? If he rolls an average 7 and he throws 6 dice at the spell and it fails or you dispel it, he just lost an entire magic phase...hence depending on those spells is not a sound tactic. It's more like gambling. I've played hundreds of games of WFB 8th, and the times I lost because of those spell can pretty much be counted on one hand. Also, if this is his tactic, then go overboard on anti-magic. In addition to a dispel scroll, take: the Feedback scroll, Sivejir's hex scroll, scepter of stability, etc. You may have to invest on a lot of items/wizards, but these items will make him think twice. And these items are there to counter such tactics. Finally remember, he only has 6 magic phases. Countering one is a big deal. A low roll on the Winds of Magic is a big deal. Turn 1: try and be out of range, Turn 2: use an item above, Turn 3: dispel scroll, turn 4-6: he should have a least one bad phase, get your units in combat, use other items list above. It is manageable.
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Post by Lizards_of_Renown on Jul 29, 2022 18:09:52 GMT
KevinC your advice is great. Plus I have the exact same mentality "8th Edition is a Gentleman's Game"
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Post by Naitsabes on Jul 29, 2022 19:53:41 GMT
I think the key is that countering six-dicing-for-the-win takes some thought and effort and experience. Six-dicing-for-the-win does not. So, when two people start out from ~zero, the six-dicer will cream the other guy, the gentleman, quite a bit. It takes a real stiff upper lip for the gentleman to push through that to the land of happy gaming. Especially when this is the only available opponent.
But really, turn that wizard into a frog once. It'll be good for your mental health. Good luck! We are all rooting for you.
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Post by burningriver on Jul 30, 2022 17:55:04 GMT
Is he just getting lucky to a point (how many actual games have you played where this has happened?)? If he rolls an average 7 and he throws 6 dice at the spell and it fails or you dispel it, he just lost an entire magic phase...hence depending on those spells is not a sound tactic. It's more like gambling. I've played hundreds of games of WFB 8th, and the times I lost because of those spell can pretty much be counted on one hand. It happens roughly 50% of games we play. He likes to record them, and it got to the point where every one he recorded the tactics worked, and vice versa.
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Post by Horace on Jul 30, 2022 21:25:33 GMT
I've found those spells not super effective tbh. Dwellers scatters a large amount and Purple Sun isn't super easy to get into a great position to drop without exposing your wizard, and eating a miscast is likely with both
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Post by knoffles on Jul 31, 2022 19:51:48 GMT
Is he just getting lucky to a point (how many actual games have you played where this has happened?)? If he rolls an average 7 and he throws 6 dice at the spell and it fails or you dispel it, he just lost an entire magic phase...hence depending on those spells is not a sound tactic. It's more like gambling. I've played hundreds of games of WFB 8th, and the times I lost because of those spell can pretty much be counted on one hand. It happens roughly 50% of games we play. He likes to record them, and it got to the point where every one he recorded the tactics worked, and vice versa. Does he tend to play just one army and is his list roughly the same each time? If so we might be able to help you tailor against him. Also if you are playing High elves you can potentially do the same vs him (if you want to stoop to his level). In the HE tactics section there is also some articles/links to a chap called sword master, who specialised in using msu High Elves. Perhaps not the easiest method of playing but having lots of smaller units will blunt the impact of his unit killing spells.
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Post by burningriver on Aug 1, 2022 13:52:40 GMT
It happens roughly 50% of games we play. He likes to record them, and it got to the point where every one he recorded the tactics worked, and vice versa. Does he tend to play just one army and is his list roughly the same each time? If so we might be able to help you tailor against him. Also if you are playing High elves you can potentially do the same vs him (if you want to stoop to his level). In the HE tactics section there is also some articles/links to a chap called sword master, who specialised in using msu High Elves. Perhaps not the easiest method of playing but having lots of smaller units will blunt the impact of his unit killing spells. He does different armies, though the other armies have a harder time doing the same thing because of lore limitations and points costs.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 3, 2022 18:48:35 GMT
He has been playing for longer than me. He was one of the guys who worked on the old mod for Medieval 2. He likes making excuses like "If I didn't have this spell, then there is no way my faction could possibly beat yours." Using Dwellers as an example, a level 4 wizard will consistently cast it when using 6 dice (average roll gives you the upcasted version) and you have a ~72% chance of getting at least 6 dice in a magic phase. Doesn't hiding in a building only help if its a template? Enough of these spells aren't. I've been slowly getting enough to host a game, but he is the only one within ~3 hour bus ride who plays (I'm too blind to drive), much less has the ability to host. I'm under the impression that WFB is pretty much dead in the country I live in outside of a handful of people. I can try to do things to counter his strategy, but with his opinion on fairness, I can't but think that a game which doesn't have something like this is a better option with his style of play. Does he also take a lvl2 with the same magic lore? I mean there's the chance he doesn't even get that particular spell if it's just a level 4? If he constantly 6 dices, feedback scroll is worth a try. That along with the miscast table could kill his wizard which means he at least only takes out a unit. You mentioned in your example he got off the spell twice. I do understand your frustration a lot. It can be annoying to play guys like that, especially if they won't listen to reason (ie, he refuses to try a different lore/not take that spell)
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