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Post by thegoat on Nov 25, 2022 15:17:00 GMT
So? The FAQ is about the affects on "models of a certain type" that both armies must have in common. How does this nerf the Fear Elves special rule? Right. The question does mention both armies having units that are affected by the special rule. But the answer, "Special rules and spells such as this only ever affect friendly units from their own army, and will not affect enemy or allied units that happen to be in range." doesn't make it clear if both armies having units that can benefit is a requirement to trigger the restriction of the special rule to only friendly units. I read it as a restriction on all "special rules or spells to beneficially affect models of a certain type". In which case a rule in the Orc & Goblin book, which beneficially affects Elves (a certain type) can't affect enemies (the Elves the Goblins are fighting). As I said above I wouldn't play by that ruling. It is clearly not the intention. But I think it is a valid interpretation of the FAQ answer and the "Fear Elves" wording.
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Post by baaderthegreat on Nov 25, 2022 15:53:22 GMT
Do Dark Elves hate riderless Phoenixes? Some army books are very clear on "hate" rules, for example the Dwarf army book: Dwarfs have Hatred (Orcs & Goblins) and Hatred (Skaven), which "means any unit taken from Warhammer: Orcs & Goblins and Skaven"... so, everything out of the respective army books. However, as far as I know, the Dark Elf army book doesn't make a similar statement, so you could argue that Dark Elves only hate units that really contain Elves. Similarily, Goblins would only fear units that actually contain Elves, not units from the High/Wood/Dark Elves army books in general.
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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 25, 2022 16:59:53 GMT
I think all non-elf units from the Elven books all cause fear anyway 😂
Edit.... apart from EAGLES and Harpies!
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 25, 2022 17:16:22 GMT
So? The FAQ is about the affects on "models of a certain type" that both armies must have in common. How does this nerf the Fear Elves special rule? Right. The question does mention both armies having units that are affected by the special rule. But the answer, "Special rules and spells such as this only ever affect friendly units from their own army, and will not affect enemy or allied units that happen to be in range." doesn't make it clear if both armies having units that can benefit is a requirement to trigger the restriction of the special rule to only friendly units. I read it as a restriction on all "special rules or spells to beneficially affect models of a certain type". In which case a rule in the Orc & Goblin book, which beneficially affects Elves (a certain type) can't affect enemies (the Elves the Goblins are fighting). As I said above I wouldn't play by that ruling. It is clearly not the intention. But I think it is a valid interpretation of the FAQ answer and the "Fear Elves" wording. It is not a valid interpretation on two counts: 1. Gaming register: it is true, in general usage, that mali for one side are indirectly boni for the other, and vice versa, but in the game, these terms are used in a more strict, direct sense. A special rule or spell affects a unit beneficially, because it bestows some kind of bonus on that unit. A hex spell that affects an enemy unit is, in gaming terms, not a bonus for your side - that already evident from the fact that a hex spell does not affect friendly units beneficially, since it cannot affect them at all. 2. " Special rules and spells such as this" does make it clear in the answer, since it refers precisely to "special rules or spells to beneficially affect models of a certain type," and goes on to explain that they "only ever affect friendly units from their own army." Even if we were to apply your idea of "benefit," it still does not work, because the O&G, besides being not "the same type of model," are clearly not "beneficially affected" - on the contrary.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 25, 2022 17:34:23 GMT
Do Dark Elves hate riderless Phoenixes? Some army books are very clear on "hate" rules, for example the Dwarf army book: Dwarfs have Hatred (Orcs & Goblins) and Hatred (Skaven), which "means any unit taken from Warhammer: Orcs & Goblins and Skaven"... so, everything out of the respective army books. However, as far as I know, the Dark Elf army book doesn't make a similar statement, so you could argue that Dark Elves only hate units that really contain Elves. Similarily, Goblins would only fear units that actually contain Elves, not units from the High/Wood/Dark Elves army books in general. Almost all Dark Elves have "Hatred (High Elves)" in their description and Army List entry. A couple (like Malekith) have Eternal Hatred instead, and hate everything. Goblins are indeed unclear, precisely because there is no AB "Elves."
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Post by thegoat on Nov 25, 2022 18:01:57 GMT
Right. The question does mention both armies having units that are affected by the special rule. But the answer, "Special rules and spells such as this only ever affect friendly units from their own army, and will not affect enemy or allied units that happen to be in range." doesn't make it clear if both armies having units that can benefit is a requirement to trigger the restriction of the special rule to only friendly units. I read it as a restriction on all "special rules or spells to beneficially affect models of a certain type". In which case a rule in the Orc & Goblin book, which beneficially affects Elves (a certain type) can't affect enemies (the Elves the Goblins are fighting). As I said above I wouldn't play by that ruling. It is clearly not the intention. But I think it is a valid interpretation of the FAQ answer and the "Fear Elves" wording. It is not a valid interpretation on two counts: 1. Gaming register: it is true, in general usage,that mali for one side are indirectly boni for the other, and vice versa, but in the game, these terms are used in a more strict, direct sense. A special rule or spell affects a unit beneficially, because it bestows some kind of bonus on that unit. A hex spell that affects an enemy unit is, in gaming terms, not a bonus for your side - that already evident from the fact that a hex spell cannot affect friendly units. I don't really follow what you are getting at. I say the "Fear Elves" rule beneficially affects Elf units (because it bestows the Fear special rule on them). Do you disagree? 2. " Special rules and spells such as this" does make it clear in the answer, since it refers precisely to "special rules or spells to beneficially affect models of a certain type," and goes on to explain that they "only ever affect friendly units from their own army." Even if we were to apply your idea of "benefit," it still does not work, because the O&G, besides being not "the same type of model," are clearly not "beneficially affected" - on the contrary. I agree no units in the Orc & Goblin faction are beneficially affected by the "Fear Elves" rule. Why does that matter? The FAQ doesn't say that is a requirement to prevent the special rule from not beneficially affecting enemy units.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 25, 2022 19:24:56 GMT
"Fear Elves" is the O&G Army special rule we are talking about, a special rule that affects (and not beneficially) Goblins, not Elves - as is easily proven by the fact that it is written in the Army List Entry of the relevant O&G units. The fact that it makes Elves cause Fear is for the issue at hand irrelevant.
And how many times? The FAQ is about special rules or spells that beneficially affect "models of a certain type" and that "such models" (i.e. the models of that type) in allied or enemy armies will not be affected. Even in your set-up: if the Elves are "the models of that type," the FAQ would only apply to "such models", i.e. any Elves in the O&G Army - of which there are none.
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Post by thegoat on Nov 25, 2022 20:01:03 GMT
"Fear Elves" is the O&G Army special rule we are talking about, a special rule that affects (and not beneficially) Goblins, not Elves - as is easily proven by the fact that it is written in the Army List Entry of the relevant O&G units. The fact that it makes Elves cause Fear is for the issue at hand irrelevant. The "Fear Elves" rule doesn't affect goblins. It affects Elves. The Fear rule from the main rule book is a attribute of the unit that causes Fear (the Elves). Not an attribute of the unit that makes the Fear test (the Goblins). And how many times? The FAQ is about special rules or spells that beneficially affect "models of a certain type" and that "such models" ( i.e. the models of that type) in allied or enemy armies will not be affected. Even in your set-up: if the Elves are "the models of that type," the FAQ would only apply to "such models", i.e. any Elves in the O&G Army - of which there are none. The statement "Special rules and spells such as this ... will not affect enemy or allied units that happen to be in range." is independent of the statement "Special rules and spells such as this only ever affect friendly units from their own army." Both statements remain valid regardless of if the other clause has a table top effect based on the models on the board. Your argument that the FAQ only blocks enemies benefiting from a special rule when friendly models gain a benefit is bizarre. If all the friendly models that would benefit die, does that mean now the enemy starts to benefit?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 25, 2022 21:05:38 GMT
The "Fear Elves" rule doesn't affect goblins. It affects Elves. The Fear rule from the main rule book is a attribute of the unit that causes Fear (the Elves). Not an attribute of the unit that makes the Fear test (the Goblins). Here you are using affect in a general sense, not in the game register sense. Which models have the Fear Elves special rule? Elves or Goblins? The statement "Special rules and spells such as this ... will not affect enemy or allied units that happen to be in range." is independent of the statement "Special rules and spells such as this only ever affect friendly units from their own army." Both statements remain valid regardless of if the other clause has a table top effect based on the models on the board. There are not independent: they are two sides of the same coin. They are saying the same thing: once as a positive, once as a negative. If something only ever affects friendly units from their own army, then it can ipso facto not affect enemy or allied units that happen to be in range, and vice versa. Your argument that the FAQ only blocks enemies benefiting from a special rule when friendly models gain a benefit is bizarre. If all the friendly models that would benefit die, does that mean now the enemy starts to benefit? That is not bizarre, but the whole point of the FAQ: to prevent enemy/allied models of the same type from benefiting from friendly beneficial special rules or spells. If there are no friendly models of a certain kind to benefit form the special rule, the enemy models could not benefit in any case. The FAQ is needed for if and when a beneficial special rule or spell does not specifically mention that it only affects friendly units.
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Post by thegoat on Nov 25, 2022 22:12:23 GMT
The "Fear Elves" rule doesn't affect goblins. It affects Elves. The Fear rule from the main rule book is a attribute of the unit that causes Fear (the Elves). Not an attribute of the unit that makes the Fear test (the Goblins). Here you are using affect in a general sense, not in the game register sense. Which models have the Fear Elves special rule? Elves or Goblins? Goblins have the "Fear Eleves" rule, which gives the Elf units the BRB special rule "Fear". Which then causes the Goblins to have to make a fear test. Clearly the "Fear Elves" rule affects the Elf units in every sense of the word. The statement "Special rules and spells such as this ... will not affect enemy or allied units that happen to be in range." is independent of the statement "Special rules and spells such as this only ever affect friendly units from their own army." Both statements remain valid regardless of if the other clause has a table top effect based on the models on the board. There are not independent: they are two sides of the same coin. They are saying the same thing: once as a positive, once as a negative. If something only ever affects friendly units from their own army, then it can ipso facto not affect enemy or allied units that happen to be in range, and vice versa. Your argument above was the second clause only matters if the first clause is true. Now you argue they say the same thing. Okay, that still agrees with my position the FAQ says an Orc & Goblin special rule cannot beneficially affect an Elf unit. Your argument that the FAQ only blocks enemies benefiting from a special rule when friendly models gain a benefit is bizarre. If all the friendly models that would benefit die, does that mean now the enemy starts to benefit? That is not bizarre, but the whole point of the FAQ: to prevent enemy/allied models of the same type from benefiting from friendly beneficial special rules or spells. If there are no friendly models of a certain kind to benefit form the special rule, the enemy models could not benefit in any case. The FAQ is needed for if and when a beneficial special rule or spell does not specifically mention that it only affects friendly units. I agree that is the intention of the FAQ. But that is not what the FAQ actually says. It says an Orc & Goblin special rule cannot beneficially affect an Elf unit. Which is exactly what "Fear Elves" does.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 25, 2022 23:12:51 GMT
Your argument above was the second clause only matters if the first clause is true. Now you argue they say the same thing. Okay, that still agrees with my position the FAQ says an Orc & Goblin special rule cannot beneficially affect an Elf unit. No, my argument demonstrably was not, and the FAQ does not. Here is my argument in the positive: 2. " Special rules and spells such as this" does make it clear in the answer, since it refers precisely to "special rules or spells to beneficially affect models of a certain type," and goes on to explain that they "only ever affect friendly units from their own army." Even if we were to apply your idea of "benefit," it still does not work, because the O&G, besides being not "the same type of model," are clearly not "beneficially affected" - on the contrary. And here I say the same thing in the negative: And how many times? The FAQ is about special rules or spells that beneficially affect "models of a certain type" and that "such models" ( i.e. the models of that type) in allied or enemy armies will not be affected. Even in your set-up: if the Elves are "the models of that type," the FAQ would only apply to "such models", i.e. any Elves in the O&G Army - of which there are none. I agree that is the intention of the FAQ. But that is not what the FAQ actually says. It says an Orc & Goblin special rule cannot beneficially affect an Elf unit. Which is exactly what "Fear Elves" does. No, it does not. You continuously ignore the fact that this applies to "models of a certain type" that are present in both the friendly and the enemy or allied army - because you cannot refute it. Which models of the same type does a HE/DE/WE army and an O&G army have in common regarding the Fear Elves special rule? None.
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Post by thegoat on Nov 25, 2022 23:20:36 GMT
You continuously ignore the fact that this applies to "models of a certain type" that are present in both the friendly and the enemy or allied army - because you cannot refute it. Which models of the same type does a HE/DE/WE army and an O&G army have in common regarding the Fear Elves special rule? None. I don't need to refute it. The FAQ answer (the only authoritative part of the FAQ) says nothing about models "that are present in both the friendly and the enemy or allied army". The FAQ answer was written poorly and is too broad. That is my whole point.
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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 26, 2022 0:08:19 GMT
Jesus Hussain Christ - the FAQ is clearly talking about 2 Bretonnian armies fighting one another, and clarifying whether: Army A's Peasants can take the Ld of Army B's Knights within 8"...
The FAQ doesn't come anywhere near the "Fear Elves" Goblin rule. Not remotely.
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Post by vulcan on Nov 26, 2022 2:43:15 GMT
Do Dark Elves hate riderless Phoenixes? I'd have to go back and look at the rules. If the rule says DE hate HE, then no. If the rule says DE hate all units from the HE book, then yes. If I remember correctly, it says the latter... but I'm not going to take a stand on MY memory... or lack thereof.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 26, 2022 8:53:51 GMT
You continuously ignore the fact that this applies to "models of a certain type" that are present in both the friendly and the enemy or allied army - because you cannot refute it. Which models of the same type does a HE/DE/WE army and an O&G army have in common regarding the Fear Elves special rule? None. I don't need to refute it. The FAQ answer (the only authoritative part of the FAQ) says nothing about models "that are present in both the friendly and the enemy or allied army". The FAQ answer was written poorly and is too broad. That is my whole point. The FAQ is not so much written poorly, rather than being willfully misinterpreted. Context matters. Grammatically, the phrase "friendly infantry and cavalry" can be read either as "friendly infantry and friendly cavalry" or as "friendly infantry and cavalry in general (friendly, enemy, allied)." However, in the context of an augment spell, the first reading is the only correct one. Let us look again at the FAQ. First we have the question: Yes, what about "allied units" on my side? It does not refer to "such models." Can we now infer that here any and all allied units are being referred to? No, because it is still about "special rules or spells to beneficially affect models of a certain type." The only models that can be affected by "special rules or spells to beneficially affect models of a certain type" are precisely "models of a certain type." If you have a spell affecting Wizards, only Wizards can be affected. In the context of the question, there is only one correct interpretation here. Now we turn to the answer: So, the subject here still is " special rules or spells to beneficially affect models of a certain type." Just like in the question, the only models that could be affected by "special rules or spells to beneficially affect models of a certain type" are still "models of a certain type" - in their own army or in enemy/allied armies. Except that the FAQ rules the latter out. Again, in the context of the answer (and the question), there is only one correct interpretation here. You would require the FAQ something like this: Q: It’s not uncommon for special rules or spells to beneficially affect models of a certain type. If my opponent’s army also has such models of a certain type, can they be beneficially affected too? What about those models of a certain type from allied units on my own side, can they be beneficially affected too? (p132 & p136) A. Special rules and spells to beneficially affect models of a certain type only ever beneficially affect such models of a certain type in friendly units from their own army, and will not beneficially affect models of that certain type from enemy or allied units that happen to be in range. Which is as convoluted as it is unnecessary. Edit: Let us replace the general "model of a certain type" with a concrete example: Are you seriously trying to tell us that anything but war machines can be affected here?
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