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Post by baaderthegreat on Nov 24, 2022 21:35:09 GMT
Again, concerning the "Size matters" special rule of the Orcs and Goblins army...
Are Hobgoblins Goblins? Let's say, an Orcs & Goblins army is allied with a Chaos Dwarf army... and a Hobgoblin unit from the latter army is destroyed. Does an Orc unit within 6 inch have to make a panic test? Or doesn't it because of "Size matters"?
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Post by baaderthegreat on Nov 24, 2022 21:53:07 GMT
And... are Gnoblars Goblins for the purpose of that special rule?
EDIT: Okay, forget that question... I just realized that Gnoblars have their own special rule making them irrelevant to *everybody*, so they never cause panic tests... so it doesn't matter if they are considered goblins or not... but still, what about Hobgoblins?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 24, 2022 22:58:56 GMT
"Size Matters" is an O&G Army special rule, and thus only applies to units in the O&G AB. Unless, of course, specifically stated otherwise, which for Hobgoblins is neither the case in the O&G AB, nor the Tamurkhan expansion.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Nov 25, 2022 0:31:59 GMT
"Size Matters" is an O&G Army special rule, and thus only applies to units in the O&G AB. Unless, of course, specifically stated otherwise, which for Hobgoblins is neither the case in the O&G AB, nor the Tamurkhan expansion. Indeed. Lorewise it also checks out as the standard OnG disdain Hobgoblins and would probably find it amusing to see them die.
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Post by baaderthegreat on Nov 25, 2022 7:23:26 GMT
Hm. While I see that this is a valid interpretation, I don't see that it is the only interpretation that is valid.
An army rule can describe how a certain unit reacts to another certain unit (like, "Fear Elves").
If (and really: if!) a unit is defined as that particular kind of unit (if it says "Hobgoblins are Goblins"), it wouldn't matter if they are part of the Orcs & Goblins army or not.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 25, 2022 9:33:28 GMT
An army rule can describe how a certain unit reacts to another certain unit (like, "Fear Elves"). True, but not relevant. More relevant is that the Size matters special rule applies to "Goblins - of any kind," but that was written before Tamurkhan, and would still require some rule describing Hobgoblins as "Goblins." If (and really: if!) a unit is defined as that particular kind of unit (if it says "Hobgoblins are Goblins"), it wouldn't matter if they are part of the Orcs & Goblins army or not. Exactly. Hence: Unless, of course, specifically stated otherwise, which for Hobgoblins is neither the case in the O&G AB, nor the Tamurkhan expansion. In Tamurkhan, fluff describes them as "greenskins," "Goblin kind," or "Goblin and Orc kin," who are "universally loathed by other greenskins," but that is too vague, and fluff has no bearing on the rules, anyway.
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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 25, 2022 10:21:16 GMT
Dwarfs used to hate "greenskins", which if I remember correctly, included hobgoblins...
Their 8th ed book now says "units from Orcs & Goblins army book" instead.
So Hobgoblin and Gnoblars get off scot free!
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 25, 2022 12:15:05 GMT
In any case:
BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p12:
Q: It’s not uncommon for special rules or spells to beneficially affect models of a certain type. If my opponent’s army also has such models, can they be affected too? What about allied units on my own side? (p132 & p136) A: Special rules and spells such as this only ever affect friendly units from their own army, and will not affect enemy or allied units that happen to be in range.
Case closed.
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Post by thegoat on Nov 25, 2022 13:11:59 GMT
In any case: BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p12: Q: It’s not uncommon for special rules or spells to beneficially affect models of a certain type. If my opponent’s army also has such models, can they be affected too? What about allied units on my own side? (p132 & p136) A: Special rules and spells such as this only ever affect friendly units from their own army, and will not affect enemy or allied units that happen to be in range. Case closed. That seems to completely nerf the "Fear Elves" rule in the Orc & Goblin army book.
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Post by vulcan on Nov 25, 2022 14:06:46 GMT
In any case: BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p12: Q: It’s not uncommon for special rules or spells to beneficially affect models of a certain type. If my opponent’s army also has such models, can they be affected too? What about allied units on my own side? (p132 & p136) A: Special rules and spells such as this only ever affect friendly units from their own army, and will not affect enemy or allied units that happen to be in range. Case closed. That seems to completely nerf the "Fear Elves" rule in the Orc & Goblin army book. Not at all. Fear elves is a special rule on goblin units. It may be mechanically identical to putting 'causes fear in goblins' on all elf units, but being on the goblin unit instead of the elf unit makes all the difference for THIS rule.
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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 25, 2022 14:22:48 GMT
Do Dark Elves hate riderless Phoenixes?
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Post by thegoat on Nov 25, 2022 14:28:44 GMT
That seems to completely nerf the "Fear Elves" rule in the Orc & Goblin army book. Not at all. Fear elves is a special rule on goblin units. It may be mechanically identical to putting 'causes fear in goblins' on all elf units, but being on the goblin unit instead of the elf unit makes all the difference for THIS rule. I would agree with you if "Fear Elves" was worded differently. Something like, "Goblin and Night Goblin units behave as if all Elves cause Fear." Or maybe if "Fear Elves" was a unit special rule on Goblin and Night Goblin unit entries. GW choose to make it is a global army book rule instead. The way "Fear Elves" is worded, "Elves cause Fear in units of Gobins and Night Goblins." It is clearly adding a special rule to Elf units not Goblin units. So the FAQ FvonSigmaringen posted applies. (Not that I would ever play that way. I'm just making a devil's advocate argument.)
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 25, 2022 14:36:14 GMT
thegoat: I am not quite sure what the problem is. The Fear Elves rule is not beneficial to the Goblins, nor do the Elves share any models with O&G.
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Post by thegoat on Nov 25, 2022 14:37:52 GMT
thegoat : I am not quite sure what the problem is. The Fear Elves rule is not beneficial to the Goblins, nor do the Elves share any models with O&G. It is beneficial to the Elves.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 25, 2022 14:48:22 GMT
So? The FAQ is about the affects on "models of a certain type" that both armies must have in common. How does this nerf the Fear Elves special rule?
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