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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 26, 2022 9:57:39 GMT
I'd have to go back and look at the rules. If the rule says DE hate HE, then no. If the rule says DE hate all units from the HE book, then yes. If I remember correctly, it says the latter... but I'm not going to take a stand on MY memory... or lack thereof. It just says "Hatred (High Elves)". So can it be interpreted as units from the Army Book or units that are/contain High Elves?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 26, 2022 10:35:24 GMT
The problem with the latter is that there is no rule specifying what a High Elf is supposed to be, other than a unit in the HE Army Book. Most argue the latter case on the basis of fluff, but fluff has no bearing on the rules. Applying Occam's Razor, you would read it as the units in the AB, except where it obviously is not, e.g. Hatred (Goblins), or Hatred (Monsters).
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Post by baaderthegreat on Nov 26, 2022 10:46:50 GMT
Well a least it's not a problem for the Night Goblin "Hatred (Dwarfs)" rule... because you could argue that all units from the Dwarf army book contain Dwarfs (or am I missing something?). So, whether you interpret it as "Night Goblins hate everything out of the Dwarf army book" or "Night Goblins hate every unit that contains Dwarfs", it is the same result in this case.
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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 26, 2022 11:24:38 GMT
Reading the Hatred ruling, it looks as though the bits in brackets specify a type/target.
So, the Hatred (High Elves) would be anything that is considered a High Elf.
And Hatred (Dwarfs) would be anything that's a Dwarf, including Chaos Dwarfs...
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Post by baaderthegreat on Nov 26, 2022 11:38:14 GMT
Reading the Hatred ruling, it looks as though the bits in brackets specify a type/target. So, the Hatred (High Elves) would be anything that is considered a High Elf. And Hatred (Dwarfs) would be anything that's a Dwarf, including Chaos Dwarfs... That would have been my next point too.
Are Chaos Dwarfs considered a sub-species of Dwarfs in a sense so that Night Goblins with Hatred (Dwarfs) also hate Chaos Dwarfs? Here we go again...
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Post by baaderthegreat on Nov 26, 2022 11:58:52 GMT
I think all non-elf units from the Elven books all cause fear anyway 😂 Edit.... apart from EAGLES and Harpies! Unless, of course...
From the fluff: "Some Dark Elves believe they [Harpies] are the souls of slain witch elves"
So, does the make Harpies Dark Elves? We could also consider them a magical hybrid between Dark Elf women and birds?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 26, 2022 12:37:36 GMT
Reading the Hatred ruling, it looks as though the bits in brackets specify a type/target. So, the Hatred (High Elves) would be anything that is considered a High Elf. And Hatred (Dwarfs) would be anything that's a Dwarf, including Chaos Dwarfs... Again: The problem with the latter is that there is no rule specifying what a High Elf is supposed to be, other than a unit in the HE Army Book. Most argue the latter case on the basis of fluff, but fluff has no bearing on the rules. Applying Occam's Razor, you would read it as the units in the AB, except where it obviously is not, e.g. Hatred (Goblins), or Hatred (Monsters). Note also that in case where the foe is clearly NOT the AB, he can be identified by name in the relevant Army List Entry: - Hatred (Monsters): you'll find "Monster" as troop type in the ALE - Hatred (Daemons of Tzeentch): you'll find Daemon of Tzeentch as special rule in the ALE - Hatred (Goblins): you'll find Goblins in the troop profile of the ALE (or in the troop type, in the case of SC) .... You will not find High Elf anywhere in the HE ALE.
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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 26, 2022 13:15:03 GMT
Applying that logic, can a Goblin fear an elf?
What's an Elf in the rules? 😜
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 26, 2022 13:27:55 GMT
Since he cannot fear "an Elf," we apply Occam's Razor and assume that "Elves" stands for the High Elves, Wood Elves and Dark Elves Army Books. The French version of the O&G AB is a bit more correct: "les Elfes, quels qu'ils soient, causent la Peur" (Elves of any kind cause Fear). Granted, they should have been generally more stringent in identifying the foe of Hatred.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 26, 2022 13:34:30 GMT
Jesus Hussain Christ - the FAQ is clearly talking about 2 Bretonnian armies fighting one another, and clarifying whether: Army A's Peasants can take the Ld of Army B's Knights within 8"... The FAQ doesn't come anywhere near the "Fear Elves" Goblin rule. Not remotely. That is a very good example, but not the only one: the Empire Master of Ballistics, HE Lileath's Blessing...
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Post by baaderthegreat on Nov 26, 2022 15:43:38 GMT
Applying that logic, can a Goblin fear an elf? What's an Elf in the rules? 😜 And what is a Chaos Dwarf, for the purpose of the Contempt and Hobgoblin Animosity special rules? Units with the Contempt rule may only join Chaos Dwarf and Bull Centaur units, and they aren't panicked by fleeing or destroyed units other then Chaos Dwarfs and Bull Centaurs. Hobgoblins don't test for Animosity if within 6 inches of Chaos Dwarfs and Bull Centaurs.
I'd say that "Chaos Dwarfs and Bull Centaurs" includes...
- All characters of the Legion of Azgorh List except Hobgoblin Khans (though it would have been better if they had added "Chaos Dwarf" / "Bull Centaur" to the troop type of the characters, just like they added "Goblin" / "Orc" / "Savage Orc" etc. for Orc & Goblin characters)
- Infernal Guard - Ironsworn - Bull Centaur Renders - All Warmachines because of their Chaos Dwarf crew? (and, in case of a Dreadquake Mortar, what if all Chaos Dwarf Crew members are dead and only the Slave Ogre is left?) - Hellcannon because of Chaos Dwarf handlers?
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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 26, 2022 16:00:05 GMT
Since he cannot fear "an Elf," we apply Occam's Razor and assume that "Elves" stands for the High Elves, Wood Elves and Dark Elves Army Books. Does that mean Goblins fear Eagles and Harpies?
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Post by vulcan on Nov 27, 2022 2:00:00 GMT
I think all non-elf units from the Elven books all cause fear anyway 😂 Edit.... apart from EAGLES and Harpies! Unless, of course...
From the fluff: "Some Dark Elves believe they [Harpies] are the souls of slain witch elves"
So, does the make Harpies Dark Elves? We could also consider them a magical hybrid between Dark Elf women and birds?
That's quite the reach, in the opinion of this Dark Elf. We all know that GW does not write tight and inclusive rules. So it falls to us, the players, to at least TRY and be reasonable in our interpretations of them so we can stop arguing and just play the game.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 27, 2022 9:18:37 GMT
And what is a Chaos Dwarf, for the purpose of the Contempt and Hobgoblin Animosity special rules? Units with the Contempt rule may only join Chaos Dwarf and Bull Centaur units, and they aren't panicked by fleeing or destroyed units other then Chaos Dwarfs and Bull Centaurs. Hobgoblins don't test for Animosity if within 6 inches of Chaos Dwarfs and Bull Centaurs. I'd say that "Chaos Dwarfs and Bull Centaurs" includes... - All characters of the Legion of Azgorh List except Hobgoblin Khans (though it would have been better if they had added "Chaos Dwarf" / "Bull Centaur" to the troop type of the characters, just like they added "Goblin" / "Orc" / "Savage Orc" etc. for Orc & Goblin characters)
- Infernal Guard - Ironsworn - Bull Centaur Renders - All Warmachines because of their Chaos Dwarf crew? (and, in case of a Dreadquake Mortar, what if all Chaos Dwarf Crew members are dead and only the Slave Ogre is left?) - Hellcannon because of Chaos Dwarf handlers? Any unit with the Contempt special rule is ipso facto either a Chaos Dwarf or Bull Centaur. So, units without Contempt (and thus not Chaos Dwarfs of Bull Centaurs) are - Hobgoblins - K'daai Fireborn - Irondemon War Engine (in spite of its Chaos Dwarf crew) - K'daai Destroyer - Hellcannon (in spite of its Chaos Dwarf Handlers) - Chaos Siege Giant All the rest in the AL has the Contempt special rule, and is thus either a Chaos Dwarf or Bull centaur. If it is not a Bull Centaur, it must be a Chaos Dwarf.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 27, 2022 9:18:57 GMT
Since he cannot fear "an Elf," we apply Occam's Razor and assume that "Elves" stands for the High Elves, Wood Elves and Dark Elves Army Books. Does that mean Goblins fear Eagles and Harpies? Yes.
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