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Post by grandmasterwang on Apr 19, 2024 5:23:40 GMT
Eighth Edition is amazing but it's not perfect.
For the Old World they have obviously examined 8th in depth as well as previous editions.
Now while Old World is its own beast and plays quite differently to 8th, it has some modifications to 8th rules which imo work well with 8th Edition.
One change is that in a Challenge, all attacks can be made, even if one of the models in the challenge is killed for the purposes of Overkill to a maximum of +5.
I personally feel this is a nice tweak to 8th Edition and in friendly/Chillhammer games of 8th will look to implement this into challenges.
What tweaks to 8th Edition would you make in light of the Old World rulebook?
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Post by lordofskullpass on Apr 19, 2024 8:55:42 GMT
I'd certainly implement the TOW approach of chargers getting a bonus to their Initiative - charging just didn't yield enough of a bonus to 8th for models that didn't have Impact Hits - and replace the cheesy rules for Always Strikes First with the TOW rules of Strike First simply increasing Initiative to 10 and Strike Last reducing Initiative to 1.
The High Ground CR bonus being implemented in any round of combat rather than purely for units that charge downhill (a relic of 7th and earlier) was also better and more realistic of how historical battles were often won by armies that owned the high ground and lost if an army charged downhill and threw the advantage away (Hastings and Austerlitz are two significant examples).
Additionally Chariots should be able to March as they do in TOW - denying them that in 7th and 8th was just outright dumb.
I'd also be liable to suggest the Fear and Terror rules from TOW are more impactful than those in 8th, while not as game-breaking as those in 6th and 7th.
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Post by Horace on Apr 19, 2024 9:20:41 GMT
TOW pays a dividend on I though, hence why ASF is still strong. This is due to no step up
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Post by tileag on Apr 19, 2024 13:20:45 GMT
The chargers get an initiative bonus I think could of been a positive for cavalry charges.
I'm not sure how I feel on the "fall back in good order, flee, and give ground". Maybe some of that rule could of been added to 8th, not sure.
I definitely don't like magic being every phase, though I kind of like the 2 dice roll every spell. Not saying its better than 8th, just different but enjoyable.
I find the games I have played with TOW have been fun but the rules kind of unintuitive.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Apr 19, 2024 13:58:22 GMT
TOW pays a dividend on I though, hence why ASF is still strong. This is due to no step up Which is in part why I suggested its application to 8th - with step-up present the TOW Strike First rules become all the more toned down. I'm not sure how I feel on the "fall back in good order, flee, and give ground". Maybe some of that rule could of been added to 8th, not sure. That's another thing I like a lot about TOW, and the concept of a defeated but not fleeing unit being pushed back is something I noticed that was missing about 8th. I think 8th would again be more interesting with that mechanic.
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Post by thorpyuk on Apr 19, 2024 17:11:21 GMT
I'd certainly implement the TOW approach of chargers getting a bonus to their Initiative - charging just didn't yield enough of a bonus to 8th for models that didn't have Impact Hits - and replace the cheesy rules for Always Strikes First with the TOW rules of Strike First simply increasing Initiative to 10 and Strike Last reducing Initiative to 1. The High Ground CR bonus being implemented in any round of combat rather than purely for units that charge downhill (a relic of 7th and earlier) was also better and more realistic of how historical battles were often won by armies that owned the high ground and lost if an army charged downhill and threw the advantage away (Hastings and Austerlitz are two significant examples). Additionally Chariots should be able to March as they do in TOW - denying them that in 7th and 8th was just outright dumb. I'd also be liable to suggest the Fear and Terror rules from TOW are more impactful than those in 8th, while not as game-breaking as those in 6th and 7th. Yes the cavalry nerf in 8th was too much - step-up already gave surviving infantry a chance to hit back without losing the ASF charging bonus. Allowing chariots to march seems sensible too
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Post by DiscoQing on Apr 19, 2024 23:28:25 GMT
BSB only affecting Break Tests and Panic Tests, this I really like. It makes Ld Rules and spells more impactful.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Apr 26, 2024 11:49:30 GMT
What about the changes to cannons?
ToW makes them weaker at long range but stronger up close with grapeshot.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Apr 26, 2024 16:05:47 GMT
What about the changes to cannons? ToW makes them weaker at long range but stronger up close with grapeshot. I think that would be a worthwhile change, 8th definitely needs its Cannons toned down against Monsters in particular and that would help a lot. Oh, and another thing, that may be controversial to some... change the Horde rule to the TOW version - offering a +1 bonus to CR for units eligible for it, i.e. only those units that fight in masses like Goblins, Skaven e.t.c. No more big ugly hordes of elite troops that wouldn't fight in such relative masses, please!
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simon
Full Member
Posts: 150
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Post by simon on Apr 27, 2024 23:20:37 GMT
There are plenty of great things about the TOW but few would work as 'tweaks' to 8th. Potentially the use of unit strength for the purposes of breaking steadfast and disrupting etc. Needing 10 knights to disrupt in the flank or a monster not breaking steadfast of a 5 man infantry block always seemed wrong. I also like how monster and chariot mounts add to the wounds of the character, just like monstrous cav mounts. I think cannons should still be d6 wounds to avoid the game descending into hero-hammer but there needs to be some incentive to use the big lord on dragon.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Apr 28, 2024 6:01:00 GMT
There are plenty of great things about the TOW but few would work as 'tweaks' to 8th. Potentially the use of unit strength for the purposes of breaking steadfast and disrupting etc. Needing 10 knights to disrupt in the flank or a monster not breaking steadfast of a 5 man infantry block always seemed wrong. I also like how monster and chariot mounts add to the wounds of the character, just like monstrous cav mounts. I think cannons should still be d6 wounds to avoid the game descending into hero-hammer but there needs to be some incentive to use the big lord on dragon. I think the 2 easiest ones to implement without damaging the core mechanics of 8th are the Challenge additional combat resolution and the initiative bonus for charging in that order.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Apr 30, 2024 11:56:46 GMT
The chargers get an initiative bonus I think could of been a positive for cavalry charges. I'm not sure how I feel on the "fall back in good order, flee, and give ground". Maybe some of that rule could of been added to 8th, not sure. I definitely don't like magic being every phase, though I kind of like the 2 dice roll every spell. Not saying its better than 8th, just different but enjoyable. I find the games I have played with TOW have been fun but the rules kind of unintuitive. The 2 dice for every spell is actually quite amusing and vindicating for me. In Chillhammer (modified 8th that I gamesmaster) games I introduced a simplified magic system to save playing time with less experienced players where every spell was a 2 dice roll 😉 😀 with no power dice pool at all. So to see GW effectively copying my magic system for TOW is pretty sweet. Of course they didn't actually copy me to but find out they developed a very similar system to the one I did was excellent. I certainly don't think the FBIGO etc works well in 8th, which is a much better mass battle game than TOW. With step up, hordes, differing regiment sizes and way more combat casualties etc it just wouldn't work at all with 8th. It works well within the TOW framework however but isn't a tweak than can be easily applied to 8th. I think the Initiative bonus for changing can work well within the realm of 8th with its ASF etc. For example with the charge Initiative bonus a unit of Blood Knights strike before Swordmasters and a unit of say Gor charging Elven spearmen would rid them of rerolls for 1 turn. It's an interesting concept for sure.
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Post by Naitsabes on Apr 30, 2024 20:44:44 GMT
Single best retro-rule about TOW: units block line of sight again. I'd carry that into the 8th edition of my dreams. Would also do a lot for toning down cannons when you can't easily draw line of sight to that sweet spot ~8" in front of the dragon because he is behind a unit of footsloggers.
I also like the reduced charge ranges (and their reduced but not removed randomness). That could work in 8th. Of course the ugly-fiddly 'measure wheels on charge' can stay in TOW.
I like the push-back/FBIGO stuff on paper (in practice it hasn't mattered yet, my seven TOW games so far have essentially been 'dragon kills stuff, the end'). Don't know if it could work in 8th.
Agreed on the I bonus, that's a neat rule that could easily be ported.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Apr 30, 2024 21:15:24 GMT
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