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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 12, 2019 16:10:43 GMT
I generally don't list tailor.
My Chaos Dwarfs lists have 3 staples that I basically always include.
3 Bull Centaurs with Great Weapons
Death Rocket
Earthshaker Cannon
I just see them as quintessential Chaos Dwarf units and love to see them on the table.
If I knew I had a friendly game against dwarfs though I wouldn't take a dispell scroll as I don't really see that as list tailoring.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 12, 2019 20:11:10 GMT
I generally don't list tailor. My Chaos Dwarfs lists have 3 staples that I basically always include. 3 Bull Centaurs with Great Weapons Death Rocket Earthshaker Cannon I just see them as quintessential Chaos Dwarf units and love to see them on the table. If I knew I had a friendly game against dwarfs though I wouldn't take a dispell scroll as I don't really see that as list tailoring. By quintessential Chaos Dwarf units, do you mean lore/fluff/aesthetics wise, or game-play wise? |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 12, 2019 23:22:45 GMT
I generally don't list tailor. My Chaos Dwarfs lists have 3 staples that I basically always include. 3 Bull Centaurs with Great Weapons Death Rocket Earthshaker Cannon I just see them as quintessential Chaos Dwarf units and love to see them on the table. If I knew I had a friendly game against dwarfs though I wouldn't take a dispell scroll as I don't really see that as list tailoring. By quintessential Chaos Dwarf units, do you mean lore/fluff/aesthetics wise, or game-play wise? Nostalgia more than anything. The first ever White Dwarf I read featured Chaos Dwarfs vs Empire where the Astragoth led Chaos Dwarfs got smashed. However I just loved the look of the army. The 2 bright spots I recall were the bull Centaurs and the Earthshaker Cannon. When I got back into Warhammer Fantasy and Chaos Dwarfs, after Astragoth (first model I painted when I got back into it) was painted I painted 3 Bull Centaurs, a death rocket and an Earthshaker Cannon. I don't think the White Dwarf battle report had a death rocket but I remember the black and white art of one. I like the way all 3 play using the updated Forgeworld rules which are think are worthy. With the Death Rocket, if it's a friendly game (which all of the ones I play nowadays are basically) I actually play the Death Rocket with 2 crew and no daemon small template as that's closest to the old one. In 8th Edition before the Forgeworld LOA rules came out I was using my Chaos Dwarfs models using the 7th Edition dwarf armybook (Astragoth is still a throwback to this time) so never got to use my Bull Centaurs. So now with the LOA i use them at every chance I get. |
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Post by Horace on Mar 13, 2019 0:15:56 GMT
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 13, 2019 9:57:33 GMT
Yes!!! That's the one. I got the bright wizard. Thanks for linking that. They don't make White Dwarf loke they used to that's for sure. The old magazine's had so much charm. I remember Vashnak the Cruel being co-erced into killing Astragoth. A skim of that battlereport reinforced my memory that the Bull Centaurs did some good work, getting the only points for the Chaos Dwarfs. Also the Earthshaker Cannon and how much fear it inspired was memorable. Awesome stuff. A highly recommended read for anyone on this forum. |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 13, 2019 10:01:44 GMT
Just a quick thought on this. Do you all normally tailor lists when facing specific foes? Would it also be good to cover some generic all comers lists (or what you normally take - say due to model restrictions) and then how you would adapt the lost against various opponents. I really think that a unit of 3 bull centaurs and a death rocket serve a purpose in all Chaos Dwarf lists regardless of opponent. It's only 250 points in total and gives a nice war machine and some toughness 5 movement for the slow dwarfs. |
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Post by Horace on Mar 13, 2019 11:49:47 GMT
Just a quick thought on this. Do you all normally tailor lists when facing specific foes? Would it also be good to cover some generic all comers lists (or what you normally take - say due to model restrictions) and then how you would adapt the lost against various opponents. I really think that a unit of 3 bull centaurs and a death rocket serve a purpose in all Chaos Dwarf lists regardless of opponent. It's only 250 points in total and gives a nice war machine and some toughness 5 movement for the slow dwarfs. Agreed they cover some essential bases and are not too horrifically priced by CD standards. I have 10 Bull Centaurs and have been pondering how I will run these. Probably not as 1 big unit (very often)  |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 14, 2019 0:51:58 GMT
I really think that a unit of 3 bull centaurs and a death rocket serve a purpose in all Chaos Dwarf lists regardless of opponent. It's only 250 points in total and gives a nice war machine and some toughness 5 movement for the slow dwarfs. Agreed they cover some essential bases and are not too horrifically priced by CD standards. I have 10 Bull Centaurs and have been pondering how I will run these. Probably not as 1 big unit (very often) What are you arming them with? 3, 3 and 4 would be a pretty good use of the 10 imo. Pictures please It would be cool to experiment with the full unit of 10. The unit will look so scary the opponent will have to deal with it. In my friendly games we allow an unridden Great Taurus as a 175 point rare choice. It's a shame not to use the model right? So often at 1800 to 2500 points I'll have an Earthshaker and Great Taurus as my rare selection. Bull Centaurs are pretty good at taking out lower level cavalry due to their toughness if they can avoid being charged. As they are slow I prefer the great weapon option. Due to their attacks I see them as more of a defensive unit than an offensive one. |
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Post by Horace on Mar 14, 2019 10:57:10 GMT
I think generally Great Weapons are optimal but I would be tempted to go Additional Hand Weapons sometimes to try and increase the attack output. they are only S4 though and don't get to stomp. At least they get all their attacks from the back rank. Bull Centaurs should really be MC/MI imo. I don't have painted Bull Centaurs but they will be appearing in my blog shortly. They are currently third on my to-do-list behind finishing my HobGobbs/Orc boyz, Earthshakers, Bull Centaurs.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 14, 2019 17:42:21 GMT
Another vote for great weapons. Strength 6 is just so much more useful than an additional attack in my opinion.
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Post by knoffles on Mar 14, 2019 21:27:23 GMT
I remember that WD, great throwback Horace, completely my era too though at that point it was all about OnG, Undead and Wood elves for me (and I got the light Wizard, still one of the least favourite mini’s I own). |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 15, 2019 2:10:45 GMT
I think Dwarfs are a tough matchup for chaos Dwarfs with cheaper average points costs and many of the same strengths. They have the advantage of rangers and miners in addition to cheaper flying units giving them the movement advantage. Their unit shooting (Thunderers and Quarrellers) outrange the chaos dwarf options and are cheaper. Cannons can kill the chaos dwarf warmachines more effectively than the chaos Dwarfs can kill theirs. Dwarf engineers/runes are a direct counterpart to Daemonsmiths in terms of increasing war machine efficiency. Hobgoblins are little threat to dwarfs. I think dark elves are a tough matchup when tailored to be anti Chaos Dwarfs with exceptional movement and unit variety in addition to brutal magic. Pegasus sorceress and other wizardry shenanigans can cause devastation to the low initiative, relatively static chaos dwarf battle lines. While Chaos Dwarfs can cause great damage to dark elf armies the lower average points cost, speed and formidable magic make this a tough matchup. Hobgoblins are little threat to dark elves. I think Skaven are also a very tough matchup with magic items and spells which are gigantic threats to Chaos Dwarf armies. This along with fearsome war machines and masses of cheap troops into which they can shoot make for a tough matchup. Hobgoblins are a threat to skaven but skaven can do cheap low quality troops better than Chaos Dwarfs/hobgoblins can. The above 3 matchups stand out to me as being hard for the more limited in options Legion of Azgorth to deal with. All 3 can take out hobgoblin heroes/redirectors quite easily with shooting and have either the magic or shooting to directly combat the Chaos Dwarfs at one of their greatest strengths. Each of the 3 armies listed matchup very differently vs chaos Dwarfs however which is a good thing and keeps things interesting. So what do you think would be the best strategy for Chaos Dwarfs to counter those armies? Any specific army builds? Any specific units or magic items? Deployment? General strategy? Dark Elves Against Dark Elves I really think 3 Death Rockets is a good idea. It's not too over the top as Death Rockets are well balanced but it's a great counter to things like witch elf hordes and also effective against their monsters. If going 3 I put one of them far away off to the side as a solo rocket which can still do damage but is diversionary if they want to send things after it in melee. Definitely a Lvl 4 against Dark elves along with a Daemonsmith (or 2) to go with the war machines. I'm not experienced at using Kdaii Fireborn (no suitable models and ogre/dragon ogres make for poor proxies so only tried a couple of times) but think that with their burn this could be a favourable matchup for them. A unit of 3 isn't so many points and at that point level where the opponent might not want to use/waste toughness debuff (for toughness test) spells on them. Earthshaker Cannon is magic against Dark Elves (all elves actually). I love it! With 6 wounds it's hard to take in combat as well. Strength 5 decimates their units and the Earthshaker effect is just gravy. For core, I wouldn't use great weapon Dwarfs in this matchup. The Strength 6 is wasted and the armor save loss will be felt. Fire glaives at strength 5 are just as effective vs most dark elf options and the shooting is likely very beneficial. Blunderbuss and standard infernal guard matchup well. I'd likely go with one of these 2 options for the main block. I think the 3 Bull Centaurs with Great Weapons (which i am a massive fan of as previously stated) don't particularly like the dark elf matchup so would potentially be swapped out for Kdaii Fireborn if I had the models. Alternatively more Warmachines (Magma) or even Ironsworn I think do well vs Dark Elves. Ironsworn with the WS5 and strength 5 and 3+ armor save and parry do surprisingly well against the dark elf troops. Dark Elves are a very tough and versatile army but Chaos Dwarfs can certainly put fear into them. I actually think Chaos Dwarfs vs Dark Elves is quite a fun and interesting matchup and puts two of the most ruthless and self serving races against each other. If playing Chaos Dwarfs I would be fine facing a witch elf horde and be more scared of things like shades and other various Dark Elf sneaky tricks. Thankfully that accursed 7th edition Pendant they had is gone so I have no qualms in facing their 8th edition book which I think is much better (and less lobsided) overall. Basically I'm a fan of the 8th edition update Dark Elves received. I do play Dark Elves myself from time to time albeit rarely. I don't own any witch elves myself (besides a Hag Queen) so maybe that's why I like to see them Imo a less 'annoying' matchup than Dwarfs or Skaven for the Chaos Dwarf Legion. |
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Post by strutsagget on Mar 15, 2019 6:16:10 GMT
I would probably not run less then 6 fireborn unless you feel very lucky as you will loose 1-2 to toughness test. If you can’t fit 6 then I would skip them.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Mar 16, 2019 3:04:54 GMT
So what do you think would be the best strategy for Chaos Dwarfs to counter those armies? Any specific army builds? Any specific units or magic items? Deployment? General strategy? Dark Elves Against Dark Elves I really think 3 Death Rockets is a good idea. It's not too over the top as Death Rockets are well balanced but it's a great counter to things like witch elf hordes and also effective against their monsters. If going 3 I put one of them far away off to the side as a solo rocket which can still do damage but is diversionary if they want to send things after it in melee. Definitely a Lvl 4 against Dark elves along with a Daemonsmith (or 2) to go with the war machines. I'm not experienced at using Kdaii Fireborn (no suitable models and ogre/dragon ogres make for poor proxies so only tried a couple of times) but think that with their burn this could be a favourable matchup for them. A unit of 3 isn't so many points and at that point level where the opponent might not want to use/waste toughness debuff (for toughness test) spells on them. Earthshaker Cannon is magic against Dark Elves (all elves actually). I love it! With 6 wounds it's hard to take in combat as well. Strength 5 decimates their units and the Earthshaker effect is just gravy. For core, I wouldn't use great weapon Dwarfs in this matchup. The Strength 6 is wasted and the armor save loss will be felt. Fire glaives at strength 5 are just as effective vs most dark elf options and the shooting is likely very beneficial. Blunderbuss and standard infernal guard matchup well. I'd likely go with one of these 2 options for the main block. I think the 3 Bull Centaurs with Great Weapons (which i am a massive fan of as previously stated) don't particularly like the dark elf matchup so would potentially be swapped out for Kdaii Fireborn if I had the models. Alternatively more Warmachines (Magma) or even Ironsworn I think do well vs Dark Elves. Ironsworn with the WS5 and strength 5 and 3+ armor save and parry do surprisingly well against the dark elf troops. Dark Elves are a very tough and versatile army but Chaos Dwarfs can certainly put fear into them. I actually think Chaos Dwarfs vs Dark Elves is quite a fun and interesting matchup and puts two of the most ruthless and self serving races against each other. If playing Chaos Dwarfs I would be fine facing a witch elf horde and be more scared of things like shades and other various Dark Elf sneaky tricks. Thankfully that accursed 7th edition Pendant they had is gone so I have no qualms in facing their 8th edition book which I think is much better (and less lobsided) overall. Basically I'm a fan of the 8th edition update Dark Elves received. I do play Dark Elves myself from time to time albeit rarely. I don't own any witch elves myself (besides a Hag Queen) so maybe that's why I like to see them Imo a less 'annoying' matchup than Dwarfs or Skaven for the Chaos Dwarf Legion. Awesome write up! What would you say are the Dark Elf units that give Chaos Dwarfs the hardest time? You mentioned 3 death rockets, do you prefer them over the Magma cannon? And if so, why? |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 19, 2019 2:39:45 GMT
Dark Elves Against Dark Elves I really think 3 Death Rockets is a good idea. It's not too over the top as Death Rockets are well balanced but it's a great counter to things like witch elf hordes and also effective against their monsters. If going 3 I put one of them far away off to the side as a solo rocket which can still do damage but is diversionary if they want to send things after it in melee. Definitely a Lvl 4 against Dark elves along with a Daemonsmith (or 2) to go with the war machines. I'm not experienced at using Kdaii Fireborn (no suitable models and ogre/dragon ogres make for poor proxies so only tried a couple of times) but think that with their burn this could be a favourable matchup for them. A unit of 3 isn't so many points and at that point level where the opponent might not want to use/waste toughness debuff (for toughness test) spells on them. Earthshaker Cannon is magic against Dark Elves (all elves actually). I love it! With 6 wounds it's hard to take in combat as well. Strength 5 decimates their units and the Earthshaker effect is just gravy. For core, I wouldn't use great weapon Dwarfs in this matchup. The Strength 6 is wasted and the armor save loss will be felt. Fire glaives at strength 5 are just as effective vs most dark elf options and the shooting is likely very beneficial. Blunderbuss and standard infernal guard matchup well. I'd likely go with one of these 2 options for the main block. I think the 3 Bull Centaurs with Great Weapons (which i am a massive fan of as previously stated) don't particularly like the dark elf matchup so would potentially be swapped out for Kdaii Fireborn if I had the models. Alternatively more Warmachines (Magma) or even Ironsworn I think do well vs Dark Elves. Ironsworn with the WS5 and strength 5 and 3+ armor save and parry do surprisingly well against the dark elf troops. Dark Elves are a very tough and versatile army but Chaos Dwarfs can certainly put fear into them. I actually think Chaos Dwarfs vs Dark Elves is quite a fun and interesting matchup and puts two of the most ruthless and self serving races against each other. If playing Chaos Dwarfs I would be fine facing a witch elf horde and be more scared of things like shades and other various Dark Elf sneaky tricks. Thankfully that accursed 7th edition Pendant they had is gone so I have no qualms in facing their 8th edition book which I think is much better (and less lobsided) overall. Basically I'm a fan of the 8th edition update Dark Elves received. I do play Dark Elves myself from time to time albeit rarely. I don't own any witch elves myself (besides a Hag Queen) so maybe that's why I like to see them Imo a less 'annoying' matchup than Dwarfs or Skaven for the Chaos Dwarf Legion. Awesome write up! What would you say are the Dark Elf units that give Chaos Dwarfs the hardest time? You mentioned 3 death rockets, do you prefer them over the Magma cannon? And if so, why? I'll come back to Dark Elves. I'd like to address your question about the Magna Cannon. The Magma Cannon is a great piece and arguably the most competitive thing in the entire LOA army. You can run 3 Death Rockets and a Magma Cannon for less than half of your special allocation at 2000 points. So running 3 Death Rockets doesnt mean that you need to skip the Magma Cannon. The fact that these 4 war machines cost only as much as a lvl 4 Prophet on Great Taurus says a lot about how effective LOA artillery is and how expensive the only Lord choice is. I am biased against the Magma Cannon. I'll admit it now. The Death Rocket was part of the original Chaos Dwarf army list so I have nostalgia towards it. I have had bad experiences using the Magma Cannon...... Take a journey back with me to when Tamurkhan is just released and I ordered it from my local GW and have a childlike enthusiasm and rush to pick it up after a long work day as soon as it's released. I ignore most of the contents and skip straight to the Legion of Azgorth section which I pore over. Up until then I had been playing my chaos Dwarf models as normal dwarfs using their 7th edition armybook where the Dwarf flame Cannon is terrible (was considered the worst war machine in the game at that point, they fixed it in the 8th edition dwarf book and gave it some range back) I still used it a couple of times as I liked the model. So I read the LOA list and my head goes wild with possibilities. I do numerous lists I think huzzah, I can use my Flame Cannon model (as a Magma Cannon) and bring it with 2 Chaos Dwarf crew to go with the attached guy with the goggles. (who could already be a Chaos Dwarf) I joyfully pack up my army of painted Chaos Dwarfs and the next week go to my local GW for a game with them. I am excited....my first game with the Legion of Azgorth! I win the game, dominantly. The Magma Cannon is 'on fire' and melts many elves. My opponent quits (he could have come back and won). Rather than being a good sport about it (and during the game it was like this) all he does is bitch and moan. I honestly didn't care about the result....I just wanted to use my Chaos Dwarfs!!!! "Magna Cannon is so broken" "It's the same cost as the Dwarf flame Cannon but so much better, look how broken it is", "That's bullshit" "Typical Forgeworld rules" This coming from a guy who always used the 7th edition dark elves book pendant of Khaileth. Anyway it was not a pleasant experience and he would tell anyone in reach how broken the new 'Forgeworld' Chaos Dwarfs were and their broken Magma Cannon was. So my next few lists didn't include a Magma Cannon. So yeah, that's my Magma Cannon story. |
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