|
Post by Allaric on Mar 1, 2016 4:32:29 GMT
So I have been looking at the big picture from a purely business perspective and this is "some" of what I am seeing now. One way for GW to increase it's profits is by cutting it's cost and to do that they are cutting their product line by discontinuing models and armies to cut the cost of production this would mean less model cost , less development , less story , less art , etc , everything that goes into creating and maintaining a model line. Now GW couldn't do this to a great enough degree if GW were to try to have both WFB Ninth edition and AoS , or if they made skirmish rules within Ninth edition apparently that would result in to many models. Another reason to do AoS and not Ninth is because to make more money from selling models it would be best to have a game that requires players to buy new models, as in models that can't be found on ebay the secondary market. So no Ninth Edition.
Now what about simply continuing 8th Edition , certainly not much cost there , all the work is done all GW had to do was to continue printing and selling books or go to a pdf download and continue selling models they already make, even it meant a reduced model line. So why would GW write a story that results in the destruction of the Warhammer world and stop selling any rule books ? Apparently for GW it wasn't enough to just discontinue support of 8th , they felt they needed to kill it. Now in a GW store and in comments all over the internet AoS fans say that 8th edition is now an "imaginary" rules set, and that WFB was destroyed when the world exploded. Now I'm a fairly rational and observant person and I'm sure my 8th edition rule book didn't explode when the fictional story some employee at GW wrote had their Warhammer world explode. All to often I find AoS fans telling me 8th edition is an imaginary rules set, even though it's clear it is real and I have a copy or two laying around that prove its not "imaginary" (sarcasm). So why do AoS fans want players to think 8th edition is gone , or is an imaginary rules set , because it competes with AoS, financially. Since GW decided to discontinue 8th it became an AoS competitor now, just like a Mantic or any other alternate rules set, except since 8th edition is a GW produced product it is a competitor with no IP infringement worries, it is a high quality compatible game edition that is as big of a competitive threat as any other alternative rules set. So the one way of getting rid of 8th edition competition is to write a story that destroys the world and work to correlate that to the 8th edition rules set too.
So we don't get a Ninth because GW is working hard to cut their model line and we don't get any continued support for 8th edition because it competes for the same customers as AoS, and we are expected to play AoS like Warhammer sheeple. But that is only what GW is hoping will happen. There is another alternative and that is to continue to play 8th edition, and just ignore AoS if you want to.
At this point I want to remind players , the Warhammer world is yours and your friends own world , you can create any story you like , and no one who plays Warhammer is obligated to adopt anyone elses fiction , especially if it is written by some paid employee of a self interest profit for profit sake only company at GW.
|
|
|
Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 1, 2016 5:09:16 GMT
If anyone is stupid enough to say that 8th Edition is an imaginary ruleset then I'd advise asking what they think about Games Workshop continuing to sell this 'imaginary' ruleset on Ibooks ?
|
|
|
Post by dannytee on Mar 6, 2016 10:40:17 GMT
At this point I want to remind players , the Warhammer world is yours and your friends own world , you can create any story you like... I agree and I would go on to say I feel like this statement does a good job of summarizing how this forum operates.
|
|
|
Post by allhailthemachine on May 6, 2016 20:34:52 GMT
I'm always curious about the extent that Gw developed a 9the edition before they made the decision to can 8th.
We saw some rules changes and hints about what this may have been with end times (combined state lines being the most odd, only appearing for some characters in end times). Though I am unsure if this was any way related to other changes they would have made.
Still I think that the end times must have been planned from the time of the elf and dwarf army books that gave hints at the events of and lead up to the end times so what ever work they had done on a 9th must have stopped there. Also I think this may have been the time that godfather of warhammer Rick Priestly left Gw.
It seems odd to me if were not developer notes or ideas about what might be in a 9th edition being worked on before this time.
Aos is so divorced from the old warhammer core rules that it looks like it came out of an attempt to create a system from the ground up (or at least influenced by lotr) rather than derived from a development of 8th
|
|
|
Post by vulcan on May 7, 2016 0:41:03 GMT
Anyone who claims 8E is an imaginary game will get clobbered with my 'imaginary' Big Red Book....
|
|
|
Post by avatarofbugman on May 7, 2016 0:46:37 GMT
Technically all of our games are imaginary. AoS is no more real than someone playing Napoleonics. People who run from games are foolish.
|
|
|
Post by Baronthehumbled on May 7, 2016 3:35:45 GMT
Yeah, game and let game. A hobby is all about enjoyment.
Anyway, just to add some things to the change to AoS:
Plans were made to have a 9th and new Bret starter box but was cancelled due to business and financial issues. Several GW employees even wrote that they had alot of great ideas to continue the old system but it just wasn't possible without the company taking a massive hit.
AoS was started in 2013, the bad economy and trying to support a game that gave 15% income (1% per army, space marine sells alone covered that) wasn't possible and needed to be streamlined.
Just stating the facts.
Also, I hear GW stores support 8th edition players again. So there's that.
|
|
|
Post by Allaric on May 7, 2016 5:24:36 GMT
Yeah, game and let game. A hobby is all about enjoyment. Anyway, just to add some things to the change to AoS: Plans were made to have a 9th and new Bret starter box but was cancelled due to business and financial issues. Several GW employees even wrote that they had alot of great ideas to continue the old system but it just wasn't possible without the company taking a massive hit. AoS was started in 2013, the bad economy and trying to support a game that gave 15% income (1% per army, space marine sells alone covered that) wasn't possible and needed to be streamlined. Just stating the facts. Also, I hear GW stores support 8th edition players again. So there's that. You left out some more important factors. In 2010 GW sued ChapterHouse, the lawsuit didnt go well for GW. In 2012 GW sues an author over the right to use " Space Marine" and loses. By aggressive use of lawsuits GW attempts to prevent others from using terms that they wish to claim the rights to as a way of making those terms related only to GW products and therefore giving them the ability to claim exclusive rights to use. With terms like orc , dwarfs , elves GW has no hope of protect IP related to WFB against competitors selling cheaper models to be used with WFB. Companies like Mantic can sell minis to WFB players making minis that are nearly the same as GW minis taking away market share from GW and putting pressure on GW to lower their prices forcing GW price margins down. GW's solution is to create a completely unique game with unique models and unique names. The uniqueness allows GW to legally defend any infringement on their copyrights and trademarks, thats why GW has AoS Orcs and Sigmarines. The irony for WFB was it was dropped by GW because it was growing in popularity , popular with other mini companies that made miniatures that could be used with WFB. GW decided it would be better to make a different game that other companies could be prevented from competing with instead of simply competing by making better minis at better prices, but GW wont accept a lower margin as they see high priced models a part of their business model. Anyone that thinks WFB wasnt a profitable fantasy game is wrong , you only have to look at all the other successful fantasy model companies. GW dropping WFB and replacing it with AoS was a strategic business move against its competitors , to create an IP that couldnt be copied or infringed upon as well as attempting to end the world their competitors were using to sell miniatures for. Unfortunely for GW their new AoS project has failed. All the things that could go wrong for GW's AoS have happened. First WFB fans are staying loyal to WFB and are continuing to play WFB , second a free fan based game based on WFB has been created with The Ninth Age and third alternative miniature companies like Mantic are stepping up and providing models to support these warhammer fantasy player games welcoming fantasy wargamers. So as of now AoS has been a lose , lose , lose for GW , they lost their game , they lost their customers , and they lost the confidence of any new customer to invest in new GW products leaving them with an anemic AoS .
|
|
|
Post by Baronthehumbled on May 7, 2016 5:56:28 GMT
Bahahaha! You're a big a hoot as you are in the warhammer fantasy forum! Seriously, the AoS facebook is only 500 likes away from the 40k facebook and the miniwargaming poll had AoS in 3rd place out of 30 choices before 9th age recently took the lead by constantly telling their entire forum to vote and only got ahead by a few hundred votes or so. (AoS having 1880 votes and 40k completely in the lead) Their tourneys are also numbering between 30-150 players. The Orc lines are constantly being sold out and restocked and a awesome AoS heroquest game is coming out along with a future global campaign (rumor). I love 8th and the old world too but you're just raging with those last statements.
|
|
|
Post by Allaric on May 7, 2016 7:20:33 GMT
Bahahaha! You're a big a hoot as you are in the warhammer fantasy forum! Seriously, the AoS facebook is only 500 likes away from the 40k facebook and the miniwargaming poll had AoS in 3rd place out of 30 choices before 9th age recently took the lead by constantly telling their entire forum to vote and only got ahead by a few hundred votes or so. (AoS having 1880 votes and 40k completely in the lead) Their tourneys are also numbering between 30-150 players. The Orc lines are constantly being sold out and restocked and a awesome AoS heroquest game is coming out along with a future global campaign (rumor). I love 8th and the old world too but you're just raging with those last statements. The warhammer.org has an earned reputation of being frequented by AoS kool aid drinking trolls that try to run off anyone on the forums that criticizes AoS or supports WFB , it obvious that the AoS fans there wont tolerate anyone posting criticism of AoS.
Initially I was indifferent to the game and the fans of AoS , to me it is just another game ( but NOT Warhammer) and I have no more care or angst for them than someone that plays Flames of War or Xwing , or any other game that I don't happen to have any interest in or think is a bad game but due to the obnoxious behavior by some of these kool aid drinking AoS fans I appreciate the fact that none of these AoS types game in my area and as a person who manages the wargame clubs in my area I have decided that there will not be any demonstrations or tournaments involving AoS this summer which also means none of the hobby stores will be ordering any AoS merchandise. I have no care to try to convince any AoS fan that the AoS game thus far is a failure in several ways, sales are down , major tournaments are using other systems , the business model is doomed , etc. but because of the overtly hostile reaction from AoS fans in warhammer.org forums I am very content to let them waste their time and money if they want , but I don't think new players to AoS or uninformed players should be mislead and be duped into thinking that the AoS game is a worth while investment and so I try to warn people that AoS could turn out to be a another GW cash grab and at the very least wait at least a year before making any major purchases in the AoS game. After all it is Warhammer 40K where GW makes most of its money and even if AoS utterly fails and folds it wont make that much of a difference in the companies future.
Most importantly though fans of WFB should know that GW dropping WFB and replacing it with AoS was a strategic business move against its competitors , to create an IP that couldn't be copied or infringed upon as well as attempting to end the world their competitors were using to sell miniatures for it wasn't sales. GW business models calls for a high price per miniature and GW would not consider competitive pricing in order to maintain or regain market share, so WFB being dropped was all GW's fault.
|
|
|
Post by Baronthehumbled on May 7, 2016 8:22:47 GMT
Haha, to each his own then.
|
|
|
Post by vulcan on May 8, 2016 2:21:25 GMT
Yes, to each their own.
I take claims of 'AoS is completely failed' and 'AoS is totally rocking and doing as well as 40K' both with a grain of salt, because no one can ever provide hard sales numbers to back them up. And because of that lack I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle, as it always tends to be when two extreme viewpoints start clashing.
Now as to TWF being home to diehard GW Fans, that I can't argue. There is an actual thread there where one such troll accused the few people discussing WFB and 9th Age there of setting up talking head accounts to keep the discussion about 'a dead game' going. Like we care enough about TWF to go through the trouble!
|
|
|
Post by Baronthehumbled on May 8, 2016 2:44:26 GMT
Indeed, I saw that when he first posted it and if I was a member I would've told him off about that nonsense, fellow GW fan or not.
|
|
|
Post by Allaric on May 9, 2016 5:03:55 GMT
Bahahaha! You're a big a hoot as you are in the warhammer fantasy forum! Seriously, the AoS facebook is only 500 likes away from the 40k facebook and the miniwargaming poll had AoS in 3rd place out of 30 choices before 9th age recently took the lead by constantly telling their entire forum to vote and only got ahead by a few hundred votes or so. (AoS having 1880 votes and 40k completely in the lead) Their tourneys are also numbering between 30-150 players. The Orc lines are constantly being sold out and restocked and a awesome AoS heroquest game is coming out along with a future global campaign (rumor). I love 8th and the old world too but you're just raging with those last statements. So lets shine a little light on your comments. First I think your own statements points out that " likes " on facebook or any "miniwargaming" polls are only an indication of a persons ability to click on a button on a webpage and don't indicate the popularity of anything else other than an individuals computer keyboard, in other words totally meaningless. As to this comment " tourneys are also numbering between 30-150 " when broken down this statement is actually evidence of a drop in participation in warhammer/AoS due to a drop in popularity of warhammer due to AoS. The largest AoS only tournament held so far , the SCGT 2016 , ONLY had about 150 sign ups a drop of about 100 from the previous 3 years when it had over 250 sign ups, in fact this years SCGT was the lowest since it started. So " 150 players " when put in its proper context is actually a statement of reduced interest or if you will one of failure , the AoS SCGT failed to attract as many players as had it in previous years including when WFB 8th Edition was played. Also AoS failed to win the support of the ETC , and AoS failed to win the support of the US Masters.
Another thing AoS failed to do was help GW raise revenues in the second half of 2015 as this Recent Financial Revue explains " Profit from the sale of miniatures and games, the company’s core business, fell 15%.. You should read some of the comments they get pretty ugly , one could say that it appears AoS failed to help GW sales maintain last years levels.
Now some people may call this "raging" but I call it telling it like it is. Honestly if AoS can't match half the popularity of WFB 8th Edition at ground zero Warhammer UK , what hope does it have ?
This is what happens when a game created by fantasy gamers gets taken over by lawyers and financial analyst, some combination of the two decided it was best to destroy all of the original world , background , and models , screw over all the players and create a completely new game with new models then stick the word Warhammer in front of it and expect the fans to buy into it , from GW's point of view they think Warhammer fans would pay real money for a turd if it was painted blue and gold like an Ultra Marine and had Warhammer written on it. But it appears GW managment thought wrong because players aren't just sheeple that will queue up (that's Brit for line up ) and pay money for whatever gets thrown out there, which is great news for the community of WFB players.
|
|
|
Post by Baronthehumbled on May 9, 2016 6:38:42 GMT
Haha, my Facebook and Miniwargaming comments were really for you saying the game had no popularity when in fact it does and at a growing rate with the many great new releases. Too true about the tourney scene being down and financials putting too heavy a hand on the business side of fantasy instead of the gaming side. Kirby may have saved the company going under several times but he's certainly put a dent in it's fanbase that Rountree will have to fix. (he's doing great so far) Not certain about that 15% drop since I keep hearing it was only a 2% drop, in anycase GW's certainly had worse drops with the older fantasy. www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/136515-Games-Workshop-Profits-Down-24-CEO-HappyGW certainly could've handled the AoS release better to keep the majority of the fanbase happy. The change to a new setting was needed to justify the I.P changes and the culling of the ranges for easier management but the initial introduction was far too blunt. If AoS started in the time of Sigmar's pantheon where the mortal defenders held back the hordes of chaos and the Stormcast were a later release then the transition would've been better. Allowing 8th as a viable alternative (as in you could freely play it in stores and get the armybook downloads) would've been exceptional. People respond much better when presented with options. The initial exclusion of points was understandable in the attempt for friendlier competitions but today's CoD minded society (especially the US) needs limitations to how big a munchkin they can be. If it can be abused then it will be. Anyway, I didn't really want to start a big debate. (Can't stand the things) I just wanted to put some more points on why GW did what it did with the change to AoS. You've certainly nailed several important points of why the change but the tough financial years and overall dropping popularity in the games and bad economy should also be accounted for.
|
|