beastyboy
Full Member
5th eddition lizardmen !
Posts: 227
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Post by beastyboy on Sept 4, 2021 14:38:38 GMT
That cant be right, can it? In that case you could never bring fanatics to open list games as your opponent would know where and how many there are from the start. The point about movement is handled in the rules for the fanatics - they are carried, they do not move themselves. In open or closed list it is the same you release the fanatics when an enemy unit comes within 8 "
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 4, 2021 14:44:26 GMT
That cant be right, can it? In that case you could never bring fanatics to open list games as your opponent would know where and how many there are from the start. The point about movement is handled in the rules for the fanatics - they are carried, they do not move themselves. Not asked, but answered: I guess, one can differentiate between open and closed lists. If you use an open list where nothing (including Fanatics) is hidden anyway, feel free to use their Ld. If you do not, you cannot use their Ld either. Completely open lists make no sense whatsoever for units that are hidden. The rules for these units even specifically tell you to note them separately, and keep the models off the table, until they are revealed. In completely open list the rules for hidden units are largely defunct.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 4, 2021 20:37:54 GMT
I forgot to answer this one: The point about movement is handled in the rules for the fanatics - they are carried, they do not move themselves. No, that is just fluff. There are no rules about "carrying a model," other than those regarding rider and mount, or some special rules like the Lizardmen "Mage-Priest Palanquin." The Night Goblins are not in any way, shape or form mounts for the Fanatics, nor does the Hide in Units special rule specify that there is an exemption to the normal rules. Hence, normal rules apply. The Fanatics would be "carried" by the Night Goblins, using 1D6 Random Movement. But again, this applies to units including models with RM, but since the NG unit do not actually include such models, it does not apply - and neither does their Ld.
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Post by anechrome on Sept 14, 2021 17:51:01 GMT
Gonna have to disagree with that. There clearly is a rule for carrying a model as it says so in the fanatics rulesection, AB p.53 in the Hide in Unit section. This may very well be the only place it occurs, but it's still in the RAW. So yes, normal rules apply, and this is the normal rule regarding fanatics and as such it doesn't need to say it's an exception to any other rule as it stands on its own.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 14, 2021 19:37:30 GMT
It is not a rule, because a rule tells you what to do, how to play (in casu: how to move), and "carried along by their fellows" does no such thing. Here are some actual rules regarding movement:
BRB p. 82; "When moving, the cavalry model always uses the Movement characteristic of the mount, and never that of the rider."
BRB p. 86: "When moving, the chariot model always uses the Movement characteristic of the beasts, although as the beasts are somewhat slowed by the chariot chassis, a chariot cannot march.
And, of course, BRB p. 74: "If two or more models in a unit have the Random Movement special rule, pivot the unit about its centre, then roll the dice only once to determine how for the unit moves. If models in the unit have a different Random Movement value, use the slowest for the entire unit."
Ruleswise, "carried along by their fellows" does not tell you anything at all.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 14, 2021 22:16:49 GMT
Not that there is a need for it, but just to put a final nail in the coffin: your "movement rule" is conspicuously missing from the French version: "Les Fanatiques s'y dissimulent, jusqu'à ce qu'ils soient poussés vers l'ennemi" (The Fanatics hide here, until they are pushed out towards the enemy).
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Post by johngg on Sept 20, 2021 9:47:02 GMT
Not that there is a need for it, but just to put a final nail in the coffin: your "movement rule" is conspicuously missing from the French version: "Les Fanatiques s'y dissimulent, jusqu'à ce qu'ils soient poussés vers l'ennemi" (The Fanatics hide here, until they are pushed out towards the enemy). Surely all GW rules are subject to English Law and jurisdiction
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Post by anechrome on Sept 21, 2021 10:12:01 GMT
It is not a rule, because a rule tells you what to do, how to play (in casu: how to move) , and "carried along by their fellows" does no such thing. Here are some actual rules regarding movement: BRB p. 82; "When moving, the cavalry model always uses the Movement characteristic of the mount, and never that of the rider." BRB p. 86: "When moving, the chariot model always uses the Movement characteristic of the beasts, although as the beasts are somewhat slowed by the chariot chassis, a chariot cannot march. And, of course, BRB p. 74: "If two or more models in a unit have the Random Movement special rule, pivot the unit about its centre, then roll the dice only once to determine how for the unit moves. If models in the unit have a different Random Movement value, use the slowest for the entire unit." Ruleswise, "carried along by their fellows" does not tell you anything at all. Nah, there's no restriction like a rule has to tell you what to do in order to be a rule in the BRB, a text can still be a rule even if it only explanitory. Also, the rule regarding fanatics tells me not only to use the units movement instead of the fanatics own random movement, but also why I should do so. Because it is carried = something completely different from all previous rules on movement. The interesting part is however that french version. Are the rulebooks in other languages strictly translations or do they stand on their own as separate works? What does the german and italian versions say regarding the fanatics being carried?
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Post by vulcan on Sept 22, 2021 1:42:27 GMT
From what I've heard about, despite GW being a British company much more care is taken when translating the rules into other languages. In several cases rules ambiguities in English do not exist in translations.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 22, 2021 12:02:13 GMT
To paraphrase pope Innocentius III: Regula superiorem non recognoscens in suo regno imperator. In theory, each language reigns supreme in its territory. In practice, the TO will decide, but, usually, that amounts to the same thing. As vulcan indicates, non-English language versions are sometimes more accurate than the English version. They can contain mistakes not in the English version, but also omit mistakes made in the English version, which indicates that they are not simple translations of the English BRB. To give three examples from the French version I have encountered so far: BRB p. 9: "as long as any part of the base is under the template everything is hit” had to amended in the English version (from "to touch its base"), not in the French. BRB p. 66: "In addition, if the model's Initiative is equal to or higher than his enemy's, he can re-roll misses when striking in close combat — he moves so fast that he can land his blows with incredible precision." had to amended in the English version (from "failed misses" ), not in the French. BRB p. 112: "Remember that war machines are allowed to pivot in the Shooting phase" had to amended in the English version (from "Movement phase"), not in the French.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 22, 2021 12:06:42 GMT
Nah, there's no restriction like a rule has to tell you what to do in order to be a rule in the BRB, a text can still be a rule even if it only explanitory. Also, the rule regarding fanatics tells me not only to use the units movement instead of the fanatics own random movement, but also why I should do so. Because it is carried = something completely different from all previous rules on movement. The interesting part is however that french version. Are the rulebooks in other languages strictly translations or do they stand on their own as separate works? What does the german and italian versions say regarding the fanatics being carried? Duh. It is the very definition of rule. From Merriam Webster: - Essential Meaning of rule
1: a statement that tells you what is or is not allowed in a particular game, situation, etc.
2: a statement that tells you what is allowed or what will happen within a particular system (such as a language or science)
3: a piece of advice about the best way to do something”
Even an explanatory statement to the rules is, in fact, telling you what to do, because it refers to and is governed by an already existing rule. Otherwise, it is not explanatory, it is just fluff. Let us take a couple of examples from Gorbad Ironclaw (O&G AB p. 64). In the description of Gnarla we read: - Gnarla: Gorbad rides Gnarla, a war boar of prodigious size, might and flatulence.
Does this have any relevance to the rules? No, it is just fluff and could be deleted completely, as the actual rules are found in Gorbad’s profile. In the description of Gorbad’s “Morglor the Mangler” we read: - “Magic Weapon. Morglor the Mangler is one of the most feared weapons ever to be wielded by an Orc warboss. When using Morglor the Mangler Gorbad gains the Always Strikes First and Multiple Wounds (D3) special rules. No armour saves are allowed against wounds caused by Morglor. ”
Can we infer from “most feared” that Morglor somehow causes Fear? Of course not, it is just fluff. - Orcs are da Best: Gorbad was the most inspirational Orc leader of all time and drew the biggest and best Orc fighters from across the land to fight under his banner. An Orc & Goblin army that includes Gorbad may upgrade any number of units of Orc Boyz and/or Orc Boar Boyz to Big’ Uns.
Can we draw any conclusions regarding rules from the first sentence? Of course not, it is just fluff. And to add an example quoted in my previous post: "In addition, if the model's Initiative is equal to or higher than his enemy's, he can re-roll misses when striking in close combat — he moves so fast that he can land his blows with incredible precision" (BRB p.66). Does the last remark have any bearing on the rule? Of course not, it is just fluff. You seem to have a completely different version of the O&G Army Book, because in mine there is absolutely nothing that “ tells me ... to use the units movement instead of the fanatics own random movement” This O&G AB p. 52: "Fanatics remain hidden, carried along by their fellows, until they are ready to be pushed out towards the enemy." surely is not it, as is also apparent from its omission in the French version. As already pointed out above, There are no rules about "carrying a model," other than those regarding rider and mount, or some special rules like the Lizardmen "Mage-Priest Palanquin." The Night Goblins are not in any way, shape or form mounts for the Fanatics, nor does the Hide in Units special rule specify that there is an exemption to the normal rules. Hence, normal rules apply. The Fanatics would be "carried" by the Night Goblins, using 1D6 Random Movement. But again, this applies to units including models with RM, but since the NG unit do not actually include such models, it does not apply - and neither does their Ld. To return to the original question: BRB p. 10 specifies "If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Leadership." So, if your opponent ever wants to use Ld 10 (which does not come from Inspiring Presence), just ask him to point out which particular model in the unit of Night Goblins actually has Ld 10. There will not be any. Since this question has been answered beyond reasonable doubt, this will be my last post on the matter: there is no point in flogging a dead Fanatic.
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Post by anechrome on Sept 22, 2021 22:51:37 GMT
Ok, first of all, Websters don't really have an impact on the BRB as the Erratas and FAQ show us that GW don't always write what they mean and sometimes don't even mean what they write. I'm gonna assume I don't have to give examples of this. Instead, I'm just gonna assume that the text written under the headline of a rule, in this case "Hide in Units", is in fact all of it a rule nomatter how fluffy it sounds. I do this because when we don't, the line between what is a rule and what is fluff is suddenly subjective and one mans fluff is anothers absolute fact. But even by the definition given above, the fact that the fanatic is being carried is in fact telling me what to do - have my unit carry the fanatic. It is not being transported in any other way. If it was for example dragged along in a hot air ballon, it may be assumed that it was subject to rules or spells affecting flyers, but it's not because the rule tells us how they are being moved. Regarding the french version, I'm still very interested in what the german and italian versions say so if anyone could check this I'd appreciate that. Just curious. Finally, the crux of the matter: If you use their Leadership, you have to say that there are Fanatics in the unit, and thus the Fanatics are not hidden anymore. However, the AB requires them to be hidden until they are released. AB>BRB in this case. This just doesn't seem to be correct and it is not in any way answered beyond reasonable doubt. The fanatics must remain hidden, yes, but even if you outright tell your opponent that there's a fantic in a unit (no matter if you are trying to use their Ld or not) they still have the Hide in Units rule and all the perks and cons that go with it. Actually, you don't even have to go as far as to tell your opponent about it as it could be obvious in a low point game that there are 75 points missing on the table and only 1 unit of nightgoblins in the army. Would that then count as them being revealed? No, ofc not! Whether or not your opponent has knowledge about the existance of the fantatics have no bearing on them being hidden. They are simply hidden until revealed. According to RAW I would therefor say that one could absolutely use the fanatics Ld as in the original question. And just to be clear, again, I don't think that this is how it is intented to work.
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Post by thegoat on Sept 23, 2021 0:44:14 GMT
According to RAW I would therefor say that one could absolutely use the fanatics Ld as in the original question. And just to be clear, again, I don't think that this is how it is intented to work. If I ever encountered a player who insisted on using a fanatic's leadership for the Night Goblin unit carrying him, I would forfeit the game on the spot. I hope everybody in this thread who are arguing that it is legal to do so are just "playing devil's advocate".
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Post by vulcan on Sept 23, 2021 7:17:15 GMT
I'd keep playing and beat him despite his... creative... interpretation of the rules.
And then just not play him again, leaving him defeated behind me.
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Post by johngg on Sept 23, 2021 16:35:12 GMT
To paraphrase pope Innocentius III: Regula superiorem non recognoscens in suo regno imperator. In theory, each language reigns supreme in its territory. In practice, the TO will decide, but, usually, that amounts to the same thing. I like this, also goes a long way to explain the terrible 'English' now encountered to the west of the Sceptre'd Isles. You almost sympathise with the French in that regard. Oh the Irony Though I fully agree that, in so much that the rules are actually only an example of how to play with your toys, that other sources, in this case the foreign language army books are a good check on the intention of the rules.
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