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Post by johngg on Sept 23, 2021 16:57:04 GMT
I do think we've gone far too far down the rabbit hole here. LITERALLY the first line of the 'Hide in units' rule, Orc & Goblins AB pp.53 "Fanatics are not placed on the table at the start of the game as are other troops" As per the BRB, which I'm sure FvonSigmaringen has likely stated MULTIPLE TIMES, if the model isn't on the table you can't use its profile. AS SOON AS THE FANATIC is on the table you go to the "Release the Fanatics"" rule, also O&G AB pp.53. <tap tap> I'm out.
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Post by padre on Sept 23, 2021 18:04:26 GMT
Oh yeah! That's that resolved then.
Right .... Next rules debate!
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Post by anechrome on Sept 26, 2021 12:15:38 GMT
As per the BRB, which I'm sure FvonSigmaringen has likely stated MULTIPLE TIMES, if the model isn't on the table you can't use its profile. Where does it say that? Not that I really doubt it, but I can't remember seeing it written. Edit: Actually, compare it to the Steam tank. It comes with an option to put an engineer on top of it, or with a closed hatch. If you choose to build it with the hatch closed, could you then not use the engineers attack when it gets into close combat?
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Post by thegoat on Sept 26, 2021 13:28:50 GMT
As per the BRB, which I'm sure FvonSigmaringen has likely stated MULTIPLE TIMES, if the model isn't on the table you can't use its profile. Where does it say that? Not that I really doubt it, but I can't remember seeing it written. Edit: Actually, compare it to the Steam tank. It comes with an option to put an engineer on top of it, or with a closed hatch. If you choose to build it with the hatch closed, could you then not use the engineers attack when it gets into close combat? The engineer is not a separate model. He is a component of the Steam Tank.
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Post by anechrome on Sept 26, 2021 14:17:31 GMT
I somehow doubt which box the model comes in has any effect on the rules. Either the engineer is on the table or not, right? But sure, let's go with that. I'd still like to know where you've read that we cannot use a models profile if it is not on the table. It does seem very logical, but Hide in Units: "...make a written note of any NG units that include fanatics." So this exception to the normal rule tells us to leave the off the table, but it also in the text provided, tells us it is INCLUDED in the NG unit. If you've seen any text anywhere where the exclusion of the fanatic model (the fanatic is still in the unit) would prevent the use of his stats then this whole issue would be cleared up.
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beastyboy
Full Member
5th eddition lizardmen !
Posts: 227
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Post by beastyboy on Sept 26, 2021 19:14:06 GMT
One last try!
If my wizard was held in reserves could I use his dispell ability off the field?
Of couse not because he is not there on the field!
At no point are fanatics a part of a night goblin unit , they come out when an enemy unit comes within 8"
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Post by johngg on Sept 27, 2021 11:42:33 GMT
Where does it say that? Not that I really doubt it, but I can't remember seeing it written. Edit: Actually, compare it to the Steam tank. It comes with an option to put an engineer on top of it, or with a closed hatch. If you choose to build it with the hatch closed, could you then not use the engineers attack when it gets into close combat? The engineer is not a separate model. He is a component of the Steam Tank. bingo
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Post by anechrome on Sept 27, 2021 18:32:06 GMT
At no point are fanatics a part of a night goblin unit , they come out when an enemy unit comes within 8" AB. p53. Hide in Units: "...The Fanatics count as being part of the concealing unit until..." Regarding you wizard, no you cant use him when he's in reserves because no rule regarding reserves tell us that he is part of a unit that is on the table even if his model is left off the table. That's the difference with the fanatics.
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Post by Horace on Sept 27, 2021 20:27:44 GMT
This has been discussed in various places and the general agreement is that they do not confer Ld to the NG.
In my humble opinion, it is also a lame thing to try and claim.
Also looking at the rules there is nothing which discounts the Fanatics passing on their random movement to the NG and you could quite justifiably argue if the Ld is passed on, the random movement is passed on
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Post by johngg on Sept 28, 2021 10:08:46 GMT
Also looking at the rules there is nothing which discounts the Fanatics passing on their random movement to the NG and you could quite justifiably argue if the Ld is passed on, the random movement is passed on ooh yes, good point!
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Post by knoffles on Sept 30, 2021 9:26:18 GMT
Is the question about fanatics leadership being asked just as a theoretical question as an example to show another case of not the clearest bit of rules writing (raw vs rai) or as a genuine question in order to try and apply the higher LD to a goblin unit and get an edge in a game? If the first then happy to debate this and it’s always good fun. If the latter then considering how low goblins leadership deliberately is, then I’d find any opponent who tried this to be gamey as hell and would likely avoid playing them again.
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Post by wundapantz on Oct 11, 2021 11:09:13 GMT
.... I totally agree that RAI is that their leadership is ignored... But they don't have a ws or bs because they are ignored, but they have been given ld 10 As the OP, this was just for the debate. I haven't and wouldn't use it in a game. So to hand out the final score, pull the grenade pin and close the conversation: The 8th edition rules no where states that goblin unit doesn't use the LD 10 However, it also doesn't state that the goblin unit also doesn't use the random movement. So enjoy the 360 degree charge arc of your night goblin buses! *Dives out before the explosion*
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Post by Horace on Oct 11, 2021 11:51:56 GMT
I think random movement would be significantly more of a penalty to NG on the whole. The disadvantages heavily outweigh any gains (like charge arc)
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 11, 2021 12:30:26 GMT
As the OP, this was just for the debate. I haven't and wouldn't use it in a game. So to hand out the final score, pull the grenade pin and close the conversation: The 8th edition rules no where states that goblin unit doesn't use the LD 10 However, it also doesn't state that the goblin unit also doesn't use the random movement. So enjoy the 360 degree charge arc of your night goblin buses! *Dives out before the explosion* The 8 edition rules do not need to state that the unit does not use them, because, as I have already pointed out on the very first page of this thread, they are not applicable in the first place. BRB p. 10: "If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Leadership." BRB p. 74: "If models in the unit have a different Random Movement value, use the slowest for the entire unit." [ Italics mine] The Hide in Units special rule does state that "you must make a written note of any Night Goblins that include Fanatics," but that is as a special rule, an idea, not as models. This is proven beyond any doubt (let alone reasonable), by a simple glance at the unit in question: it just does not include any models of Fanatics at all. They are not even on the table. As so often, the French version is more precise in its language: Les fanatiques ne sont pas placés sur la table au début de la partie comme les autre troups. Au lieu de cela, notez sur un papier quelles unités de gobelins de la nuit dissimulent des fanatiques et combien. On appelle ces unités des unités “cachette.” Les fanatiques s’y dissumulent jusqu’à ce qu’ils soient poussés vers l’ennemi. Si l’unité cachette fuit ou est détruite, les fanatiques non devoilés sont perdus.Which translates into: Fanatics are not placed on the table at the start of the game like other troops. Instead, write down which Night Goblin units conceal Fanatics and how many. These units are called “concealing” units. Fanatics hide there, until they are pushed out towards the enemy. If the concealing unit flees or is destroyed, those fanatics that have not yet been revealed are lost. I put this argument forward several times here, and it has not been refuted. Indeed, no one has even tried to refute it - it was just ignored, presumably because it is irrefutable.
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Post by wundapantz on Oct 11, 2021 21:10:18 GMT
As the OP, this was just for the debate. I haven't and wouldn't use it in a game. So to hand out the final score, pull the grenade pin and close the conversation: The 8th edition rules no where states that goblin unit doesn't use the LD 10 However, it also doesn't state that the goblin unit also doesn't use the random movement. So enjoy the 360 degree charge arc of your night goblin buses! *Dives out before the explosion* The 8 edition rules do not need to state that the unit does not use them, because, as I have already pointed out on the very first page of this thread, they are not applicable in the first place. BRB p. 10: "If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Leadership." BRB p. 74: "If models in the unit have a different Random Movement value, use the slowest for the entire unit." [ Italics mine] The Hide in Units special rule does state that "you must make a written note of any Night Goblins that include Fanatics," but that is as a special rule, an idea, not as models. This is proven beyond any doubt (let alone reasonable), by a simple glance at the unit in question: it just does not include any models of Fanatics at all. They are not even on the table. As so often, the French version is more precise in its language: Les fanatiques ne sont pas placés sur la table au début de la partie comme les autre troups. Au lieu de cela, notez sur un papier quelles unités de gobelins de la nuit dissimulent des fanatiques et combien. On appelle ces unités des unités “cachette.” Les fanatiques s’y dissumulent jusqu’à ce qu’ils soient poussés vers l’ennemi. Si l’unité cachette fuit ou est détruite, les fanatiques non devoilés sont perdus.Which translates into: Fanatics are not placed on the table at the start of the game like other troops. Instead, write down which Night Goblin units conceal Fanatics and how many. These units are called “concealing” units. Fanatics hide there, until they are pushed out towards the enemy. If the concealing unit flees or is destroyed, those fanatics that have not yet been revealed are lost. I put this argument forward several times here, and it has not been refuted. Indeed, no one has even tried to refute it - it was just ignored, presumably because it is irrefutable. Your argument that they are placed not on the table therefore their leadership is not used is another case of inferring a rule when it is not there. They are on the table, they are concealed in their unit as per their rules They are not like ambushers off the table as the rules for that are covered in the ambushers special rules They still can be destroyed by other units in the game They still give victory points if they haven't been revealed. We both agree the RAI is the fanatics don't take part until they're sprung, but RAI is an interpretation. But this is Rules as Written, and you are either Full Time RAW or arguing for an advantage. Can you point to a rule in the BRB or the OnG army book, or the FAQs for either of them, where it says you do not use the fanatics ld? Emphasis on the word model is redundant first of all, on the very first page, you pointed out that the army book special rules trumps the BRB, so here your concealed rule overrules the "models" being placed in a unit. It does not change the highest leadership in the unit. Further to this, fanatics are upgrades to a unit as are the Standard bearers, musicians, champions, shields, heavy armour, spears etc etc. Would you say a character model can't have heavy armour if the model wasn't sculpted with it? What matters is what is what is in the list. You pay 25 points in a night goblin unit and it has a fanatic concealed in it. That fanatic has LD10. The entry for the fanatics rule Hide in Units says " The Fanatics count as part of the concealing unit until they are released" The side debate about random movement, again RAW, Release The Fanatics talks about what happens when they are released and become an independent unit, but until then they "... Count as part of the concealing unit" so the concealing unit gains the slowest random movement (2d6) however disadvantageous it is.
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