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Post by wundapantz on Aug 31, 2021 23:20:16 GMT
Just running an eye over the rules and profile for fanatics.
They have leadership 10 They don't have a rule that says the unit cannot use their leadership (unlike assassins)
Is there something I have yet to see that would mean a night goblin unit still concealing fanatics does not have LD10?
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beastyboy
Full Member
5th eddition lizardmen !
Posts: 227
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Post by beastyboy on Sept 1, 2021 5:59:56 GMT
Are they part of the unit or hidden in the unit ? Do you randomise missile strikes between the fanatics and the night goblin unit ? Dose the night goblin unit have random movement until it releases its fanatics ?
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Post by wundapantz on Sept 1, 2021 7:47:31 GMT
Thanks for replying
They are hidden in a unit You cannot shoot them No the unit does not have random movement
I can see what you are trying to say
Question 1 and 2 have no impact, you don't randomise hits from shooting on characters, and the army book specifically says how shooting doesn't effect them. Other hidden units, such as assassins have a second rule in addition to them being able to hide that specifically says units cannot use their leadership.
Random movement only applies after they have been released, and they have a rule (Release the Fanatics!) To cover that.
They do not have a special that says you don't use their leadership. Their rules say they count as being a part of the unit while concealed.
The rules for Leadership on page 10 of the BRB say you always use the highest leadership in the unit.
Other units with two types of creatures in don't have special rules stating which leadership you use (skink cohorts with Kroxigors, pack masters and giant rats, squigs herds) because you follow the rule mentioned above.
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Post by DiscoQing on Sept 1, 2021 8:28:34 GMT
Same with cavalry - you use the highest Ld.
I think RAW, they are Ld10. But not RAI.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 1, 2021 8:47:58 GMT
O&G AB p. 52: "Fanatics remain hidden, carried along by their fellows, until they are ready to be pushed out towards the enemy." If you use their Ld for the concealing unit, they are not hidden anymore. Hence, you cannot use their Ld. This is an actual case of AB>BRB.
The case of Assassins is somewhat different: after Assassins have been revealed, they can remain in the original unit, or leave and join other units, while Fanatics that have been released cannot. That is why Assassins need the specification that their Ld cannot be used by other units.
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Post by wundapantz on Sept 1, 2021 9:27:27 GMT
Hide in Units doesn't mention leadership and nothing on page 52 about leadership aside from leadership 10. Assuming you can't use the leadership is inventing a rule that simply isn't there
I totally agree that RAI is that their leadership is ignored... But they don't have a ws or bs because they are ignored, but they have been given ld 10
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 1, 2021 9:37:57 GMT
If you use their Leadership, you have to say that there are Fanatics in the unit, and thus the Fanatics are not hidden anymore. However, the AB requires them to be hidden until they are released. AB>BRB in this case.
In addition, BRB p. 10 states: "If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Leadership," and although the Fanatics count as being part of the unit, the unit does not actually include their models - they are not even on the table.
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Post by wundapantz on Sept 1, 2021 10:04:31 GMT
If you use their Leadership, you have to say that there are Fanatics in the unit, and thus the Fanatics are not hidden anymore. They don't lose the rule of being hidden if your opponent knows they are in the unit.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 1, 2021 11:09:25 GMT
Well, they never lose the Hide in Units special rule, not even when they are released, because it is in their profile, but they have been revealed and are not hidden anymore. The whole point of being hidden is that the enemy does not know if and where there are any. And by your own admission, the enemy now knows. They are not Schrödinger's Fanaticats: they cannot be hidden from and known to the enemy at the same time. Edit: beastyboy made a good point. "Release the Fanatics" does not actually address movement before the release. So, if you could use the Ld of the Fanatics for the concealing unit, then BRB p. 74 would apply too: "If two or more models in a unit have the Random Movement special rule, pivot the unit about its centre, then roll the dice only once to determine how for the unit moves. If models in the unit have a different Random Movement value, use the slowest for the entire unit." But, as pointed out before, Fanatics are not actually models in the unit.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 1, 2021 11:43:45 GMT
I guess, one can differentiate between open and closed lists. If you use an open list where nothing (including Fanatics) is hidden anyway, feel free to use their Ld. If you do not, you cannot use their Ld either.
Official Update Version 1.9, p.12: Q: Do I have to show my opponent my army roster at the start of a battle, or can I wait until the end of the game, which means I only need to reveal things like which magic items my characters have taken when I first use them? (p132) A: If you think this may be an issue, discuss it with your opponent before the game starts. Some players prefer full disclosure at the start of the battle, while others prefer to wait until the battle has finished before revealing their roster. It is for you and your opponent to decide which method you prefer to use.
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Post by anechrome on Sept 1, 2021 15:30:40 GMT
If you use their Leadership, you have to say that there are Fanatics in the unit, and thus the Fanatics are not hidden anymore. However, the AB requires them to be hidden until they are released. AB>BRB in this case. Is that true? Assuming play with closed lists, are you required to explain how a unit has a specific Ld-value while the game is ongoing? I thought that was only revealed at the end of the game? I don't have much experience with closed lists.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 1, 2021 16:13:33 GMT
Whenever you first use something, you need to inform your opponent on the specifics, in particular if the opponent is not familiar with the Army you are playing with. He must be able to check whether or not what you do is correct. Even without cheating, you are bound to make mistakes once in a while. In fact, I found that informing my opponent serves as a good reminder for myself and reduces my chances of making mistakes. Of course, more seasoned players will have less need of information, as they will already know much of the details of units and items.
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Post by anechrome on Sept 1, 2021 16:24:23 GMT
Yeah, I get the usefullness of it, but is it a rule? I thought closed lists were totally closed until the end. Otherwise, you could find out that a character has a wardsave by shooting him, even if the shot is blocked by his armor. I don't know, I've just never heard of it being used that way in competative settings.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 1, 2021 16:35:04 GMT
Well, the FAQ quoted above basically gives these two choices: 1. show your opponent the army roster at the start of a battle 2. wait until the end of the game, which means you only need to reveal things when you first use them
So, you do not need to show the army roster, but you must inform him about specifics of things you are actually using. In your example, you do not need to reveal the ward save, if the shot is blocked by the armour, only if you are actually using the ward save.
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Post by anechrome on Sept 1, 2021 16:42:23 GMT
Or a 3rd option; don't reveal anything until the end of the game. In either of the last cases, using Ld10 on a unit of gobbos doesn't automaticly reveal the fanatic, right? They could theoretically have Ld10 by other means.
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