stirling
New Member
Attempting to slowly build up a Wood Elf army.
Posts: 27
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Post by stirling on Jul 18, 2016 6:28:05 GMT
Hey guys, I've been contemplating a few different sets of rules to use as I'm returning to Warhammer. Specifically, 8th ed, 6th ed, and The 9th Age. Staying in the original Warhammer universe is preferable so Ninth Age is more like a last resort. But I don't think I ever actually played in 8th, or 7th for that matter. 6th was really when I enjoyed it most because that is the time when I had become an adult but didn't have kids yet. So Warhammer was actually possible I loved 6th. I thought the game was so awesome then and wished it would never change. What I gather about the 8th ed is that the magic phase is crazy, and having a L4 Wizard is an auto-include in any list that wants a shot at being competitive. How do people here feel about that? Was 8th ed really the best ed of the rule set? If not, which ed do you lean to? If you do feel 8th is best, do you use any tweaks/house rules that you feel improve the game? Thanks
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Post by frozenfood on Jul 18, 2016 7:20:04 GMT
I went from second edition to eight so I don't know that much about the editions in between. Half our games we limit the level of the magic users to 2 because we want some cool fighter lords. If you use End of Times rules this is not necessary of course. The only other thing we do is no double steamtank, double Phoenix, double ironblaster. Personally I try to avoid the dispel scroll because it's boring :-). When playing ogres against a possible death mage, I make an exception :-D
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Post by Horace on Jul 18, 2016 14:47:08 GMT
I really like 8th, I think a lot of the internet wisdom you hear about 8th is a myth.
I find Lvl 4 wizards no more compulsory than any other edition. Preferable yes, but that's the point of paying for the upgrade isn't it? I also don't see Purple Sun etc wiping entire hordes off the board first turn or cannons making ridden monsters nonviable.
I guess it also depends what you consider competitive to be? Competitive as in win a tournament or that you have a reasonable chance of winning a game?
8th is a pretty solid ruleset for me, with all the books at least relatively in balance. We won't really use any house rules beyond TLoS removal for speed purposes. A few tweaks could definitely improve things but I think a lot of that is personal preference
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Post by KevinC on Jul 18, 2016 20:52:10 GMT
8th in my fav edition. Though while 6th ed. had a decent rules set, there were a number of things that I didn't like. I'll list everything that comes to mind at the moment:
1. Army books: 6th edition army books were the worst. The books were stripped of most of their fluff and many units from their previous incarnations were dropped (i.e. spider riders, steam tanks, the classic special characters, etc.). Additionally, the 6th edition army books for Vampire Counts, Skaven, and Lizardmen were totally insane!
2. Magic dice generation was a disaster. Players could basically tailor their list to ensure a huge number of power dice in their magic phase, and could rely on this. This made magic heavy armies extremely effective and easy to create. For example, I could create an army that (as long as my wizards lived) generated 12 power dice each magic phase, meanwhile my opponent might have 4 dice. If you chose to go light on magic, that could very well put you at an extreme disadvantage. 8th edition fixed this by the random 2D6 magic dice – this was a really well done rule. NOTE, when it comes to a 'broken' magic phase, it's not really the individual spells that matter, it's how a player generates power dice. Imagine in each magic phase you could guaranty rolling double 6s. Sound cool? Great, go play 6th edition and you can do that!
3. Fear and psychology. Prior to 8th edition, psychology was a HUGE part of the game. Fear causing troops were extremely powerful in particular. For example, if a unit lost a round of combat to a Fear causing unit, there would be no break check - your unit would just flee auto. Most people mistakenly though Magic was the greatest strength of an Undead army. While magic was powerful indeed, an entire army that caused Fear was very good, it was the true reason that made Undead totally broken. Some think that in 8th edition psychology, with Fear in particular, were toned down too much. I think they got it just right.
4. Skirmishers, Flying Circuses, and Stupid armies. Standard rank and file was never really that good or important in 6th edition. If you wanted a serious advantage over your enemy, you would take an entire army of skirmishers, flyers, fast cav, or a combination of all three (always supported by heavy magic of course). If you fought a good general with a Tzeentch Flying Circus or a Skink Skirmisher or a Dark Elf Fast Cav army...forget about... you probably lost the game at set up. Again, 8th edition fixed this by making rank and file the solid choices, and toned down the skirmishers and fast fav.
5. A single S7+ hit on a chariot auto destroyed it. I hated that rule. I like chariots.
These are the main issues that come to mind.
Most of the "problems" people have with 8th edition, I don't see as issues. I'm not a huge fan of true LOS, but it's not that big of a deal. I think cannons are far too easy to hit with, but then again, they always were. At the end of the day, I feel like 8th edition takes the best elements of WFB editions 1-7, combined with some new, solid rules (i.e. steadfast for more ranks, 2D6 winds of magic, etc.), for both the most fun and most balanced edition.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Jul 18, 2016 23:01:14 GMT
I agree with everything Kevin says. My biggest issues with the previous editions were the auto-break from fear (dark elves with that damn banner) and S7 hit auto-destroy. My favorite add to 8th was steadfast.
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stirling
New Member
Attempting to slowly build up a Wood Elf army.
Posts: 27
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Post by stirling on Jul 19, 2016 1:30:16 GMT
Hey, really great responses. Thanks. I've got the rulebooks for both editions so I'll be needing to try several games with both rule sets to really compare them. I do like the Steadfast idea. I guess part of what makes me hesitant about 8th instead of 6th is that one of my favorite armies has been Bretonnia. Not only do the cavalry seem to lose much of their previous advantage (due to Steadfast), but the fact that the Brets book is the only surviving book from 6th also seems pretty painful. But then again, I think Bret players were still respectably holding their own at competitive events before 8th was crushed. To me all I want for an army to be "competitive" is for it to have a legitimate chance to win. Unlike most loud voices on the Internet, I have never been of the opinion that army X or army Y was "broken" and couldn't ever win. I've also never played at those competitive events though so maybe I don't quite understand where they're coming from. In a casual setting with a friend, I just want to feel I have a chance....and I don't think I ever felt I didn't in 6th, even though my most frequent gaming buddy was a Vampire Counts player Anyway, just kinda rambling. Thanks for the thoughts.
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Post by KevinC on Jul 19, 2016 1:37:22 GMT
Yes, one downside to 8th was that Bretonnia was no updated. However, that's why we are doing an EEFL Bretonnia list, check out the current draft here: EEFL Bretonnia Army List
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stirling
New Member
Attempting to slowly build up a Wood Elf army.
Posts: 27
|
Post by stirling on Jul 19, 2016 4:25:18 GMT
Yes, one downside to 8th was that Bretonnia was no updated. However, that's why we are doing an EEFL Bretonnia list, check out the current draft here: EEFL Bretonnia Army ListWow, fantastic! I didn't realize this kind of thing was happening here on this forum. I will spend some quality time looking through that. Is the movement to update the lists for 8th happening for any other armies? And are these updates part of a larger group or organization? Or is it all just stuff happening here on this forum?
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Post by hiportes on Jul 19, 2016 13:23:50 GMT
I think Kevin covered most of my opinions on 8th (to me easily the best edition I have played), but i will caveat that I did not play 6th -- I started in 5th, missed 6th, then came back in 7th and stayed through 8th. Perhaps the best part about 8th (for me) is that the armies are much more balanced across the board. For example, in much of 7th, if I took a really non-standard army (from a competitive standpoint) and faced off vs Dark Elves, Vampire Counts, or Daemons, I pretty much knew I had no chance. In 8th, the "top-tier" armies are not nearly so much better than the "bottom-tier" armies, and many times I have seen the "underdog" armies win, even in tournaments. I am able to bring whatever I want and know that I still stand a chance, which makes me very happy.
As for the Bretonnian book, give it a try, it seems to be great for 8th and can provide some much needed options for a neglected army.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Jul 19, 2016 16:18:37 GMT
I will also add that I love that 8th supports huge units of models. I fully understand that this ultimately hurt WFB as the gaming culture and GWs price increases turned many away from these large investments. However, for me and my gaming crew with large collections of models, this opened up a new dynamic for us. At first I was like "now I have to paint 40 more halberdiers" but once I complete these projects and see the finished units...no regrets. I can still play with units of 10 and 20 and I'm not required to build hordes of 50, but the options are nice.
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Post by KevinC on Jul 19, 2016 20:22:16 GMT
Yes, one downside to 8th was that Bretonnia was no updated. However, that's why we are doing an EEFL Bretonnia list, check out the current draft here: EEFL Bretonnia Army ListWow, fantastic! I didn't realize this kind of thing was happening here on this forum. I will spend some quality time looking through that. Is the movement to update the lists for 8th happening for any other armies? And are these updates part of a larger group or organization? Or is it all just stuff happening here on this forum? stirling, The true mission of EEFL is to preserve 8th edition and continue to play is without modifying the current supplements. Since the Bretonnia army book was written for 6th edition, we thought it was appropriate to start working on an 8th edition list. EEFL is also dedicated to creating new supplements and armies for 8th edition, such as Warhammer: Grom and the Stormcast Eternal army list.
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Post by Naitsabes on Jul 19, 2016 22:39:11 GMT
unsurprising anwers...must have to do with the name of the forum!
I will just add that a big improvement from 6th to 8th is that models actually do get killed in close combat. What I remember from 6th is that even if you had a gentleman's agreement to field rank-and-file infantry blocks, they were mostly just pushing and shoving ineffectively in close combat and generally the unit with the highest static combat resolution won and ran down their opponent.
My main issue with 8th is still TLOS. But, easy to house rule.
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Post by creepingdeath on Jul 20, 2016 10:42:27 GMT
I enjoyed 6th edition and still miss some of the rules such as lapping round in cc and guessing ranges etc . but there's a lot more carnage with 8th; cc and shooting are much more satisfying phases. In general I think 8th is more polished with fewer loopholes and it's so much easier to look up specific rules in the rulebook when you need them.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Jul 20, 2016 10:57:03 GMT
Some great posts here. 8th is my favourite Warhammer due to random charges, step up and premeasuring.
Multiple unit battles now have the massive casualties i would expect. 6th edition was solid but the emphasis on cavalry over infantry (first rank striking only, fixed charges) was something i didnt really like.
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Post by creepingdeath on Jul 20, 2016 11:59:35 GMT
...Yeah, I seem to remember my orcs being crushed by empire cavalry a lot. The guessing range did weaken the cannon a little which IMO is needed. I also liked the not being able to shoot at characters within 6" of a unit rule. Still, for me 8th convincingly wins overall.
What do you guys do instead of the TLOS rulw?
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