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Post by KevinC on Apr 19, 2023 2:01:38 GMT
Also, remember this is a gentlemen's game. If I have a model/unit on the wrong base - I give the benefit of the doubt to my opponent, if there is a dispute or if they think I'm gaining an advantage they can determine how it should be worked out.
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Post by hivefleetmanticore on Apr 19, 2023 6:21:32 GMT
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Post by grandmasterwang on Apr 19, 2023 11:36:34 GMT
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Post by vulcan on Apr 19, 2023 16:37:26 GMT
How new v. old bases balance will depend on how templates work. If they remain much like 8E, then any benefit gained in attack density from smaller bases will be lost in higher casualty rates from template attacks.
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Post by johngg on Apr 20, 2023 9:13:44 GMT
Not sure why people think you won't be able to work out base sizes with a movement tray? If you're really super bothered about working out the exact lines, just lightly etch the tray in the right spots before you paint it. Super easy. I will probably 3d print these exact things. I'm sure someone will sell them. yep, exactly this. Well said.
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Post by luke82 on Apr 20, 2023 9:37:38 GMT
Yep it’s doable, but still another expense between the old players and the game, so you can surely understand the grumbles? The box and books are unlikely to be cheap so when you’ve got lots of units on their own movement trays already adding this ball ache to the mix before you’ve already bought any new toys is not exactly super happy fun times.
And I remember the Wild West times of early AoS when the ‘use whatever base and fudge it’ line was trotted out, factoring it in to every single rules interaction soon gets tedious… kind of leaves me thinking why bother?
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Mallo
Full Member
Posts: 244
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Post by Mallo on Apr 20, 2023 12:56:45 GMT
Not sure why people think you won't be able to work out base sizes with a movement tray? If you're really super bothered about working out the exact lines, just lightly etch the tray in the right spots before you paint it. Super easy. I will probably 3d print these exact things. I'm sure someone will sell them. Ah, dont even! I won't name the game (as I won't give them the satisfaction/advertising) but I used to play another game which I used a different set of minis for. I based a bolt thrower on a round base, as thats what I had that would fit all the crew & model. Someone else put a thread up on their forum asking if round bases were ok, so I showed my bolt thrower and said, sure I've never had any issue with the base. One of the companies 'unpaid workers' (I'm not really sure what else you'd call them. I guess influencer or promoter nowadays) decided I was wrong as you couldn't see front facings on a circle, I could cheat and fire from behind the mini as there was no clear 'front arc' that you would get with a square base. I pointed out, there definitely was a front facing arc- the pointy end of the model, not to mention that the crew were all obviously 'working' the weapon in a single direction. Plus if it was that much of an issue, were a person couldn't imagine where the 60mm square around a 60mm circle would form, simply a square of card underneath the model would solve any disputes (other than resolving the lack of intelligence someone would have to find this an issue in the first place). Well, you can only imagine how this went down and this person called on the rest of their games 'unpaid workforce' to give me grief. (This story has a an even worse chapter 2, but I dont' want to bog this thread down even more! ) The person complaining at me was an ex WFB player. I no longer doubt that GW did indeed generate a good portion of their old WFB base as a group of folk that struggle with things like 'common sense' and resolving simple 'non-issues' Yep it’s doable, but still another expense between the old players and the game, so you can surely understand the grumbles? The box and books are unlikely to be cheap so when you’ve got lots of units on their own movement trays already adding this ball ache to the mix before you’ve already bought any new toys is not exactly super happy fun times. And I remember the Wild West times of early AoS when the ‘use whatever base and fudge it’ line was trotted out, factoring it in to every single rules interaction soon gets tedious… kind of leaves me thinking why bother? Except the basing rules in 1st Ed AoS was a great solution for people with older collections. Until a bunch of ultra competitive folk abused the rules and others forced them to change them back to using bases. Distance were measured from the models, not the bases. Which meant you could easily use stuff like the old lord of change or the brand new plastic version in the same game without the basing being an issue. As long as both players measured from the same rough focal area of a model. But as some idiots started doing things like 'measuring from the top of the plastic wings for LOS' when attacking, but using things like hidden parts of the model or the arse end of the model to measure when being attacked to gain unfair advantages. GW were forced back to having standardised base sizes, meaning people now had to show up with a 120mm base for old metal daemons (which looks ridiculous) or being told to sod off with their classic models. At this point, the cost of having to make a few new movement trays is far better than being expected to rebase old armies. If some one is willing to spend €1000s on rulesbooks and models, but gripe over a €1 movement tray to update your old units (if you want to play in that sort of environment that is) then in my opinion that person is looking to grumble no matter what. Can't wait to see people moan about a cheap solution and see GW backtrack on "allowing" it in the first place just to avoid the loudest noise. My group has decided on a simple solution. Anyone caught moaning about rebasing, rebasing unnecessarily, or rebasing just to chase meta is getting lifetime ban from playing here
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Post by luke82 on Apr 20, 2023 13:30:00 GMT
Didn’t think I’d ever encounter anyone who would describe early AoS basing rules as great, it’s certainly a positive mental outlook!
It’s a bit disingenuous to say ‘buy a €1 euro movement tray you whinging cheap skates!’ when I am guessing most of the grumblers have many, many units to retray. It will not be a small expense unless you have a very small amount needed. A lot of us make a tray for each unit, painted, magnetised etc. so chucking these in the bin and replacing is a pain in the bum… maybe not enough to write the game off, but certainly valid grounds for a grizzle and it’s pretty mean spirited to just dismiss it as needless moaning from grognards.
The basing upscale was always coming, so it’s a bit of crying over spilt milk perhaps, and it was probably naive to take GW at their word that no scale was changing (and having to increase base size to accommodate bigger models is the definition of scale increase I’m afraid, white knights) and that they could use their old armies from the get go… but still have at least a smidge of sympathy for those who this has cheesed off.
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Post by vulcan on Apr 20, 2023 15:22:11 GMT
Let's see...
I have roughly 6,000 points of Skaven, 15,000 points of DE, 6,0000 of Bretonnians, 5,000 of Dwarves, and 4,500 points of Lizardmen... so far.
Even discounting war machines and centerpiece models, that's still a LOT of movement trays to replace. If it's not over 100 I'd be quite surprised.
I'm sure there are people out there with even MORE and BIGGER armies than me as well...
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Post by tileag on Apr 20, 2023 20:22:19 GMT
The answer is to have a set of movement trays for "competitive" play that you use for all your armies.
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Post by Horace on Apr 20, 2023 20:37:44 GMT
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Post by rustynumber on Apr 20, 2023 22:46:52 GMT
Any reasonably priced M trays will match what it would cost you (perhaps in money PLUS time) to rebase anyway methinks. We've got some good MDF laser cutting gaming companies here in Aus and trays tend to be less than $10 each depending on size. I can't see myself needing more than maybe 5 of each 20 and 25.
Just had a look, and the one great mob I've always used (back 2 basix) do a magnetic rubber topped MDF tray, 5 x 5 for 25mm for less than $7. If I want to field 10 x 5 Skaven with no rubber on it that's $5.50. I think we'll be safe from cost overruns buying some adaptor trays.
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Post by Naitsabes on Apr 20, 2023 22:55:12 GMT
We haven't even seen the rules at the point though so I won't be getting ahead of myself. Trays might not even be required if it's garbage. And watered-down garbage is certainly a possibility very much this!
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Post by lordofskullpass on Apr 21, 2023 8:21:40 GMT
How new v. old bases balance will depend on how templates work. If they remain much like 8E, then any benefit gained in attack density from smaller bases will be lost in higher casualty rates from template attacks. Templates should be the same as those in previous Editions of Fantasy, as the new edition of the Horus Heresy brought them back in the starter box. I'd certainly be very surprised if GW changed the templates for TOW after doing that.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Apr 21, 2023 8:26:14 GMT
The answer is to have a set of movement trays for "competitive" play that you use for all your armies. GW used to be good at making movement trays, for Fantasy and later the 8th Edition version of 40K Apocalypse. If they made their own standardised set of movement trays for TOW (both for bases used in the game and adaptor trays for smaller bases) it would solve all our problems.
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