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Post by Luigino on Jun 28, 2023 16:53:50 GMT
Regardless of rules, a large amount of model is a big obstacle for people getting into the game.
And it would mean either GW is selling TOW product at a much lower cost per model compared to AOS and 40K (which they would never do); or that an average army will cost you a couple of monthly salaries at least.
The truth is also that 28mm is probably the worst scale to play Warhammer, it would work so much better at at 15-18 mm scale; you could keep individual models removal while maintaining the scope of large armies clashing.
Because as it stands, even if models costed pennies and required no time to get ready for a game, one would lack the space to play anything more interesting than a shuffle forward and then straight into combat
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Post by thegoat on Jun 28, 2023 17:11:00 GMT
Model count is all about supporting attacks and being able to strike back after taking causalities. If they get rid of supporting attacks in TOW, then smaller units are fine again. It's all the extra attacks via supporting attacks, hordes etc. that makes close combat more brutal. This is something I like about 8th, more attacks, more brutal combat. Also, in prior editions, if you killed models, that reduced the attacks back. In 8, as long a model is there it can attack. Thus in prior editions typical units did not produce much damage. I think it's a mistake going back on this. 8th edition combat is the way to go. Dead on. If WH:TOW goes back to whoever attacks first gets to kill the other guy's front rank so there are no attacks back, then I doubt I will switch to the new game. 8th edition combat is superior with both sides getting to actually roll dice. In past editions, cav was so good because you wanted to strike first and hit hard. Cav have long charge moves so this meant they strike first, and since they have lances or spears they hit hard. If the enemy unit could even attack back, they would be up against a 1+ or 2+ armour save. 8th edition made infantry more viable, but really all units are better. Cav took a hit. 8th edition might have nurfed cavalry too much. Getting charged by a unit of heavy cavalry should be brutal. But the same unit should not have staying power if it gets stuck in a tarpit fight. I don't think the current rules successfully represent that in the game. |
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Post by ryryak2 on Jun 28, 2023 19:52:07 GMT
Regardless of rules, a large amount of model is a big obstacle for people getting into the game. And it would mean either GW is selling TOW product at a much lower cost per model compared to AOS and 40K (which they would never do); or that an average army will cost you a couple of monthly salaries at least. The truth is also that 28mm is probably the worst scale to play Warhammer, it would work so much better at at 15-18 mm scale; you could keep individual models removal while maintaining the scope of large armies clashing. Because as it stands, even if models costed pennies and required no time to get ready for a game, one would lack the space to play anything more interesting than a shuffle forward and then straight into combat For truly epic looking games, try Warmaster. It's RnF in 10mm scale, and definitely scratches that itch for large scale armies duking it out on the battlefield. There's a very large 3D printing community for it as well so the miniatures are pretty cheap considering the age of the game. |
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karnus
Junior Member
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Post by karnus on Jun 28, 2023 20:26:41 GMT
Regardless of rules, a large amount of model is a big obstacle for people getting into the game. And it would mean either GW is selling TOW product at a much lower cost per model compared to AOS and 40K (which they would never do); or that an average army will cost you a couple of monthly salaries at least. The truth is also that 28mm is probably the worst scale to play Warhammer, it would work so much better at at 15-18 mm scale; you could keep individual models removal while maintaining the scope of large armies clashing. Because as it stands, even if models costed pennies and required no time to get ready for a game, one would lack the space to play anything more interesting than a shuffle forward and then straight into combat For truly epic looking games, try Warmaster. It's RnF in 10mm scale, and definitely scratches that itch for large scale armies duking it out on the battlefield. There's a very large 3D printing community for it as well so the miniatures are pretty cheap considering the age of the game. For me personally, I tried smaller scale games (Warhammer epic for example) and mechanically the game works great but the offside is the models themselves don’t look great, feels more like playing chess than a tabletop game. |
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Post by Luigino on Jun 28, 2023 20:27:17 GMT
Regardless of rules, a large amount of model is a big obstacle for people getting into the game. And it would mean either GW is selling TOW product at a much lower cost per model compared to AOS and 40K (which they would never do); or that an average army will cost you a couple of monthly salaries at least. The truth is also that 28mm is probably the worst scale to play Warhammer, it would work so much better at at 15-18 mm scale; you could keep individual models removal while maintaining the scope of large armies clashing. Because as it stands, even if models costed pennies and required no time to get ready for a game, one would lack the space to play anything more interesting than a shuffle forward and then straight into combat For truly epic looking games, try Warmaster. It's RnF in 10mm scale, and definitely scratches that itch for large scale armies duking it out on the battlefield. There's a very large 3D printing community for it as well so the miniatures are pretty cheap considering the age of the game. Oh I'm well aware of Warmaster (and its new remastered version). It truly is the better game. I just wish I hadn't already invested years and years into 28mm |
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Post by lordofskullpass on Jun 29, 2023 9:07:27 GMT
Model count is all about supporting attacks and being able to strike back after taking causalities. If they get rid of supporting attacks in TOW, then smaller units are fine again. It's all the extra attacks via supporting attacks, hordes etc. that makes close combat more brutal. This is something I like about 8th, more attacks, more brutal combat. Also, in prior editions, if you killed models, that reduced the attacks back. In 8, as long a model is there it can attack. Thus in prior editions typical units did not produce much damage. I think it's a mistake going back on this. 8th edition combat is the way to go. All GW needs to do for TOW is ditch the Horde rule that existed in 8th (or at least turn it into a special rule that could only be given to sword-fodder units like Goblins and Skaven, so that it can just be used by the units that it was designed to benefit, and not elite units that would naturally be found in smaller numbers and abuse the mechanic to create deathstars in 8th) and that would persuade players to take ugly hordes less often, because the benefits would be less likely to outweigh the costs of sinking so many points into one big, unwieldy unit. |
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karnus
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by karnus on Jun 29, 2023 9:50:16 GMT
Model count is all about supporting attacks and being able to strike back after taking causalities. If they get rid of supporting attacks in TOW, then smaller units are fine again. It's all the extra attacks via supporting attacks, hordes etc. that makes close combat more brutal. This is something I like about 8th, more attacks, more brutal combat. Also, in prior editions, if you killed models, that reduced the attacks back. In 8, as long a model is there it can attack. Thus in prior editions typical units did not produce much damage. I think it's a mistake going back on this. 8th edition combat is the way to go. All GW needs to do for TOW is ditch the Horde rule that existed in 8th (or at least turn it into a special rule that could only be given to sword-fodder units like Goblins and Skaven, so that it can just be used by the units that it was designed to benefit, and not elite units that would naturally be found in smaller numbers and abuse the mechanic to create deathstars in 8th) and that would persuade players to take ugly hordes less often, because the benefits would be less likely to outweigh the costs of sinking so many points into one big, unwieldy unit. There is very much a Death Star meta in my 8th editiongaming group that I would be keen to see changed in TOW |
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Post by vulcan on Jul 1, 2023 2:41:19 GMT
The solution to deathstars is
1) Play all the scenarios. Some of them are very hard for deathstars to win.
2) 6 spells hit deathstars hard.
3) Use chaff to restrict their mobility.
4) Force-feed them a big tarpit that's worth few points, while your elites go smash their required other units.
5) If you absolutely MUST engage the deathstar, threaten them from the front but hit them in both flanks at the same time so they can't combat reform and get supporting attacks.
A deathstar can only do one thing at a time, and (unless you give them the chance) can only kill one unit at a time. Having many units means you can do more than they can. Win the maneuver battle, take the objectives, and make maximum use of your advantage in the action economy.
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Post by Horace on Jul 1, 2023 8:42:40 GMT
The solution to deathstars is 1) Play all the scenarios. Some of them are very hard for deathstars to win. 2) 6 spells hit deathstars hard. 3) Use chaff to restrict their mobility. 4) Force-feed them a big tarpit that's worth few points, while your elites go smash their required other units. 5) If you absolutely MUST engage the deathstar, threaten them from the front but hit them in both flanks at the same time so they can't combat reform and get supporting attacks. A deathstar can only do one thing at a time, and (unless you give them the chance) can only kill one unit at a time. Having many units means you can do more than they can. Win the maneuver battle, take the objectives, and make maximum use of your advantage in the action economy. If you know it's coming it's even easier to cater for. When you roll and place scenery plop some nice central bottle necks down, combined with the above excellent advice |
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karnus
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by karnus on Jul 1, 2023 9:08:06 GMT
The solution to deathstars is 1) Play all the scenarios. Some of them are very hard for deathstars to win. 2) 6 spells hit deathstars hard. 3) Use chaff to restrict their mobility. 4) Force-feed them a big tarpit that's worth few points, while your elites go smash their required other units. 5) If you absolutely MUST engage the deathstar, threaten them from the front but hit them in both flanks at the same time so they can't combat reform and get supporting attacks. A deathstar can only do one thing at a time, and (unless you give them the chance) can only kill one unit at a time. Having many units means you can do more than they can. Win the maneuver battle, take the objectives, and make maximum use of your advantage in the action economy. If you know it's coming it's even easier to cater for. When you roll and place scenery plop some nice central bottle necks down, combined with the above excellent advice It’s my empire opponent, Calvary Death Star with General, BSB, warrior priest and a life wizard thrown in usually. As Lizardmen it’s tough to break. Also my skaven opponent has started taken a death star of plague monks pushing a screaming bell ridden by a wizard. Flanked by 2x 50 strong units of slaves And the high elf player has his usual banner of the world dragon malarkey. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 1, 2023 10:34:00 GMT
karnus: The Empire does not have any Death Stars - we can produce a second-rate Starlet at best.
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Post by Horace on Jul 1, 2023 11:33:27 GMT
Forests and rivers can be quite helpful in these situations, negating steadfast
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Post by sedge on Jul 1, 2023 13:48:16 GMT
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Post by human on Jul 1, 2023 14:45:22 GMT
Regardless of rules, a large amount of model is a big obstacle for people getting into the game. And it would mean either GW is selling TOW product at a much lower cost per model compared to AOS and 40K (which they would never do); or that an average army will cost you a couple of monthly salaries at least. The truth is also that 28mm is probably the worst scale to play Warhammer, it would work so much better at at 15-18 mm scale; you could keep individual models removal while maintaining the scope of large armies clashing. Because as it stands, even if models costed pennies and required no time to get ready for a game, one would lack the space to play anything more interesting than a shuffle forward and then straight into combat I did some theoretical list building and at least for 8th edition Warhammer Fantasy it was cheaper to get a warrirors of chaos army for 2.5k than an AOS army for 2k |
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Post by lordofskullpass on Jul 2, 2023 8:26:33 GMT
Great-looking Bretonnian Paladin, shame it's Forge World Resin again which sucks arse. Also I'm not impressed that they've previewed just one model at this point in time, it makes me worried that they're not going to release TOW in the 40th anniversary of Warhammer Fantasy year after all. It really is a mystery to me why GW are making character models in FW resin when they've already revolutionised the art of making character models in plastic. It's like going back to fax machines in the age of email. |
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