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Post by knoffles on Jul 27, 2022 8:35:44 GMT
Like knoffles, Mathias has covered this [quite well in my mind] in his WAP rules. Go check them out! I have to say that there are quite a lot of good ideas in WAP. I also like questing knights striking at initiative order on the charge. It’s these tweaks that I think 8th needed rather than any major overhaul. |
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Post by oldmandan on Aug 6, 2022 13:05:35 GMT
I find that knights are closer to real life, if you look at the battles between Scotland and England we Scots used our pikemen formations which proved to be effective against cavalry. Its all about strategy when using them now.
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Post by snyggejygge on Aug 23, 2022 6:46:25 GMT
Thing is, cavalry are meant to be your big hitters... What you've described is about all they're good for tbf! Glad Dwarfs are my main army.. I disagree. Cavalry should be a solid support unit, not a mainline big hitter. In older editions five heavy knights could charge the front of a twenty-five (or more) man infantry unit and route them in one turn. And of coarse chase them down too. That was pretty dumb. Cavalry should be used strategically to get flank charges when your big hitter block infantry units are holding the line. That´s not true, unless the 5 heavy knights were vampires or Chaos knights, 5 heavy cavalry won´t break a unit of 20+ infantry with a basic combat resolution of 5 to start with (3 ranks, outnumbering & standard), 5 knights led by a champion causes an average of less than 3 wounds, add a standard & they still lose the combat. In 7th if you had 5 knights led by a character it´s a different matter, but it´s actually the character that tips the balance, not the cavalry themselves. In 6th where ranks were 4 wide only, the infantry unit still comes out on top unless its a lord leading the unit. I´m not saying we should go back to 7th edition, but cavalry was way too nerfed in 8th edition, they´re basically a chaff unit with a good save.... |
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Post by DiscoQing on Aug 23, 2022 15:09:09 GMT
You're forgetting the 5 auto wounds from the steeds/mounts.
Also, outnumbering isn't in 8th.
So static res 4 (banner and 3 [maybe,] ranks)...
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Post by thegoat on Aug 23, 2022 16:43:18 GMT
I disagree. Cavalry should be a solid support unit, not a mainline big hitter. In older editions five heavy knights could charge the front of a twenty-five (or more) man infantry unit and route them in one turn. And of coarse chase them down too. That was pretty dumb. Cavalry should be used strategically to get flank charges when your big hitter block infantry units are holding the line. That´s not true, unless the 5 heavy knights were vampires or Chaos knights, Those are pretty much the units I was talking about when I said "heavy knights" along with High Elf Dragon Princes. 5 heavy cavalry won´t break a unit of 20+ infantry with a basic combat resolution of 5 to start with (3 ranks, outnumbering & standard), 5 knights led by a champion causes an average of less than 3 wounds, add a standard & they still lose the combat. In 7th if you had 5 knights led by a character it´s a different matter, but it´s actually the character that tips the balance, not the cavalry themselves. In 6th where ranks were 4 wide only, the infantry unit still comes out on top unless its a lord leading the unit. I´m not saying we should go back to 7th edition, but cavalry was way too nerfed in 8th edition, they´re basically a chaff unit with a good save.... I think cavalry play correctly. But their points costs in most army books could be lowered to reflect their 8th edition performance. |
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Post by vulcan on Aug 24, 2022 2:06:02 GMT
You're forgetting the 5 auto wounds from the steeds/mounts. Also, outnumbering isn't in 8th. So static res 4 (banner and 3 [maybe,] ranks)... 5 auto wounds from steeds? Okay, I get it, the old joke about S5-6 lances bouncing while S3 horses do all the wounds, but it's just a joke. Against WS3 T3 5+ save infantry 5 horse do 0.625 wounds per round. The real cavalry killer was steadfast. It's impossible for most cavalry units to outrank infantry, so they will NEVER (okay, this is an exaggeration, but not all that much of one) break infantry in the charge, even when flanking. Then they're trapped in combat and will be ground down over time. Historically, a flanking cavalry charge was the end of the unit they hit. Sometimes the unit would break and run before the cavalry even made contact. Yes, WFB is not historical. Dragons and orcs and all that. But we KNOW how cavalry works in much the same manner that we KNOW how swords and axes work. There's not much excuse for swords and axes working in the game context... and cavalry NOT working. |
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Post by thegoat on Aug 24, 2022 12:30:57 GMT
Historically, a flanking cavalry charge was the end of the unit they hit. Sometimes the unit would break and run before the cavalry even made contact. Yes, WFB is not historical. Dragons and orcs and all that. But we KNOW how cavalry works in much the same manner that we KNOW how swords and axes work. There's not much excuse for swords and axes working in the game context... and cavalry NOT working. I agree, cavalry should be better at disrupting ranks compared to other units. Currently disrupting ranks requires at least two full ranks in the flanking unit. One rank of cavalry should be enough. |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 24, 2022 14:38:40 GMT
Surely I cannot be the only person who has ever failed a steadfast breaktest....
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Buxe
Full Member
Posts: 135
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Post by Buxe on Aug 24, 2022 15:18:45 GMT
Surely I cannot be the only person who has ever failed a steadfast breaktest.... You're not... In my opinion cavalry works just fine in the 8th edition. Before 8th I used to play pure WoC cavalry lists and had great success with that. Point & charge. Neither tactically challenging nor historically realistic. The strengths of cavalry has always been to attack troops in loose formation, tip the scale/force the decision with well-timed charges in flank and rear of formations already engaged by infantry, riding down routing troops, harass the soft troops (artillery, logistics - in general combat support) in the enemy's back field and cutting off reinforcements. And the cavalry has always been better at self-marketing than the infantry... |
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Post by KevinC on Aug 24, 2022 16:36:09 GMT
Although any player of any edition of WFB has there preferences for tweaks, one of the great elements of 8th edition is that GW repurposed the game to be about large & bloody combats.
Armies designed to avoid combat, prevent combat and dance around the table are no longer super viable - indeed it is challenging to make such tactics work in WFB 8E.
When it comes to steadfast and ranks and disruption, the key to to coordinate attacks - i.e. sending two units against a unit in the front, or better hitting the flank or rear. It is this kind of coordinated attacks that will win you a game of WFB 8E.
Also, the different troop types have an almost roc/scissors/paper effect. Large monsters can crush infantry with the extra thunder stomps. Calvary and Monstrous Infantry can take on large monsters (negating the thunderstomp and have multiple wounds or high armour saves for further defense), units of infantry can trump cavalry with their staying power but can get take severe damage from Monsters and Monstrous Infantry/Cav. If you design your tactics based on Troop Types, and coordinating specific troop types you can achieve great success.
I've found that players that prefer older editions of WFB typically prefer combat avoidance tactics such as march blocking and redirecting. These tactics are more difficult to pull off in 8E, but with the focus on coordinated attacks in 8E the game is more realistic in terms of real warfare and I find it more enjoyable.
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Post by vulcan on Aug 25, 2022 7:37:44 GMT
Surely I cannot be the only person who has ever failed a steadfast breaktest.... You're not... In my opinion cavalry works just fine in the 8th edition. Before 8th I used to play pure WoC cavalry lists and had great success with that. Point & charge. Neither tactically challenging nor historically realistic. The strengths of cavalry has always been to attack troops in loose formation, tip the scale/force the decision with well-timed charges in flank and rear of formations already engaged by infantry, riding down routing troops, harass the soft troops (artillery, logistics - in general combat support) in the enemy's back field and cutting off reinforcements. And the cavalry has always been better at self-marketing than the infantry... That's WOC cavalry. Try Brets sometime. And they're SUPPOSED TO BE the best cavalry army. |
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Post by snyggejygge on Aug 26, 2022 7:42:15 GMT
You're forgetting the 5 auto wounds from the steeds/mounts. Also, outnumbering isn't in 8th. So static res 4 (banner and 3 [maybe,] ranks)... Ah yeah, sorry, the wounds I calculated was with the steeds hitting as well, but I forgot they always do more damage than the knights  Well he did say earlier editions in the text I quoted, so why even mention that? Cavalry got way too nerfed in 8th, steadfast & a very high pointscost makes them useless, now if disrupted also canceled steadfast, along with only needing 5 cavalry models, they could be a very useful tool, but as it is, my cavalry never gets used in 8th.... |
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Post by vulcan on Aug 26, 2022 14:47:12 GMT
Shoot, I'd be happy if disrupting just nullified steadfast, even if it still required two ranks. Of course, that might be because Brets can do it with six models, so...  |
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