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Post by oldmandan on Aug 20, 2022 9:33:50 GMT
Correct, I was looking at it more from a wood elf viewpoint, the tree man ancient has a lower weapon skill and less attacks but same S, T and W as a normal tree man. So that was the reasoning behind my reply, maybe if the Tzaanbull had a higher initiative, what is the difference in stats between Ogre butcher and the standard Ogre wizard hero. Also same for Tyrant and slaughter master, what are the stat differences?
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 22, 2022 4:38:13 GMT
One issue with Centigors being warbeasts is that they are stompable. In principle warbeasts is fine for me (they are kind of a hybrid) but rulewise if they are to remain warbeasts probably an exclusion should be made unless the intention is that they get stomped and thunderstomped.
I'm also not sure how it works with shields, throwing weapons and armor if they are warbeasts?
I've now read up to page 13 of your book lore. Honestly I'm struggling a bit with these massive sentences. It's a bit overwhelming, maybe that's just my old English classes coming out though 😀. Love the page 10 art with the hairy face Beastman. Reminds me a bit of a Mierce miniatures sculpt. Also reinforces how varied Beastmen are.
A long time ago I proof read a 400 page non-fiction book for English publication so this following bit may seem a bit pedantic.
I wish I could copy and paste text sections but I don't think i can on phone with the pdf. An example would be the paragraph you the have on Page 12 under the title "The Great Mutating" beginning with "Upon". The whole paragraph is only 2 sentences, the second sentence has about 10 commas and is 9 lines long. These whopper sentences could easily be broken up into 3+ and would read a lot easier if they were.
I have a couple of questions for you regarding
Page 12
Did the old ones arrive on silver ships? Where from GW is this from? Seems very futuristic/40k?
Chaos wastes to the North you say are "edged with arcane machinery"
I cannot recall reading this anywhere with machinery in the Chaos north, where did you get this from? Again very futuristic.
"leading the races they created in a ditch attempt to repel the might of Chaos"
I looked up the expression 'created in a ditch' on Google as I assume you weren't being literal (ie elves weren't actually created in a physical ditch by the old ones..)to see what you meant. This sentence is far too colloquial to me and clashes with how the lore reads in official GW publications. I've never heard the expression before.
This is all just my 2c of course.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 22, 2022 5:16:38 GMT
Ghorros and Centigor
You have him as a separate hero (great) whereas the GW version had him as a unit upgrade replacing the champion. This also makes him 25 points cheaper which is fair. Mark of Slaanesh and sober roll makes him Initiative 7 which does seem a little high.
I have a current lack of clarity as to whether the Mark of Slaanesh is then free for his Centigor unit? The +1 WS in the GW book was included for free but you mentioned Slaanesh being in place of any other Mark which infers that it is paid for?
GW version has light armor, yours currently doesn't. RAW GW version has a 5+ armor save (cavalry and light armor) whereas yours currently has no armor save at all. Not sure if this was deliberate.
I'm assuming him not making Centigor core (unlike the GW book) is intentional?
No more hangover from hell haha for the Centigor. Drunken giving Immune to Psychology now as well as Stubborn is cool but does mean they cannot flee charges anymore. Just double checking that this is intentional?
I think 20 points for Centigor (vs the previous 25) seems fair and the command cost is fixed. They definitely needed a buff and here they have been buffed and points reduced.
Slaanesh Movement 9 Centigor is interesting and now a Slaanesh sober Centigor is Initiative 6 which is massive.
Warbeasts means they have a lower armor save than the GW version however, 5+ vs 4+. May be missing something here.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 22, 2022 5:40:54 GMT
Ungor Hunters
These are your rebranded Ungor Raiders from the GW Beastmen book. Given Raiders is an army rule this makes sense 😀
I have to say currently I don't like them as an option in your book the way that are.
You have them at 5 points whereas stock GW book had them at 6 points. 6 points in GW book was very reasonable and they wrote very commonly taken not just by myself.
I would basically always take at least one unit if 5 or 6 of them, usually a couple.
You have made them arguably better by giving them the scouts rule as well.
GW version didn't allow them to take standards with I think was fair enough given their lore.
No one would imo take the 15 point halfhorn/champion upgrade. I know they get an extra attack and BS so you have tried to cover both versions of Ungor with the Half horn upgrade but when a Bestigor, Minotaur or Centigor champion is 10 points I don't see anyone upgrading an Ungor for 15 points. It's currently the most expensive Champion upgrade in your army!
10+ makes them very different to the GW 5-10 size which fundamentally changes the unit a lot.
GW version you could take a champion and a musician for 9 points, in your version it would be 20 points.
So overall you have made the command way less feasible/competitive but the actual dudes even more competitive?
It's currently a very weird unit to me personally.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 22, 2022 15:21:58 GMT
One issue with Centigors being warbeasts is that they are stompable. In principle warbeasts is fine for me (they are kind of a hybrid) but rulewise if they are to remain warbeasts probably an exclusion should be made unless the intention is that they get stomped and thunderstomped. Oof, that's something I don't want. They're cavalry-size so shouldn't be Stompable, even though they are not cavalry. I'll add this as an extra clause to the 'Horsemen of the Wilds' special rule. I'm also not sure how it works with shields, throwing weapons and armor if they are warbeasts? I would have thought those would work as normal, I don't see how those would affect War Beasts differently. I've now read up to page 13 of your book lore. Honestly I'm struggling a bit with these massive sentences. It's a bit overwhelming, maybe that's just my old English classes coming out though 😀. A long time ago I proof read a 400 page non-fiction book for English publication so this following bit may seem a bit pedantic. I wish I could copy and paste text sections but I don't think i can on phone with the pdf. An example would be the paragraph you the have on Page 12 under the title "The Great Mutating" beginning with "Upon". The whole paragraph is only 2 sentences, the second sentence has about 10 commas and is 9 lines long. These whopper sentences could easily be broken up into 3+ and would read a lot easier if they were. That's fair, I do admit perhaps I write my sentences too long, I'll see if I can break those down to make them easier to read. Love the page 10 art with the hairy face Beastman. Reminds me a bit of a Mierce miniatures sculpt. Also reinforces how varied Beastmen are. One of the few good things Age of Sigmar has done . That was a new piece of artwork they made specially for the first Beastman Battletome, that also fits as a piece of Fantasy artwork depicting the Beastmen fighting in the Chaos Wastes or in an area of forest particularly warped and mutated by Chaos. Did the old ones arrive on silver ships? Where from GW is this from? Seems very futuristic/40k? The Old Ones were a futuristic race, often believed to be identical to the Old One race destroyed by the Necrons in 40K. A fair few different books tell of how the Old Ones arrived in silver starships: - Lizardmen 7th and 8th Edition books (the 7th Edition one refers to the ships simply as 'stellar' rather then 'Silver', but it still proves that the Old Ones had futuristic starships.
- The Beastman 6th Edition book also refers to the Old Ones having futuristic silver starships
Chaos wastes to the North you say are "edged with arcane machinery" I cannot recall reading this anywhere with machinery in the Chaos north, where did you get this from? Again very futuristic. I believe that was another piece of lore from the 6th Edition Beastman book, to represent the warping and twisting of the original machinery the Old Ones set up to form the Polar Gate into Chaotic devices of evil after the Polar Gate fell, or dark Chaos machinery constructed around the gate to keep it as a portal into the Realm of Chaos. "leading the races they created in a ditch attempt to repel the might of Chaos" I looked up the expression 'created in a ditch' on Google as I assume you weren't being literal (ie elves weren't actually created in a physical ditch by the old ones..)to see what you meant. This sentence is far too colloquial to me and clashes with how the lore reads in official GW publications. I've never heard the expression before. The expression is not 'created in a ditch', it is 'ditch attempt'. It means a last desperate struggle, in this case to repel Chaos. The Old Ones are leading the races they created, i.e. Elves, Dwarfs and Men, in a last attempt to stop Chaos from destroying the world. Ghorros and Centigor You have him as a separate hero (great) whereas the GW version had him as a unit upgrade replacing the champion. This also makes him 25 points cheaper which is fair. Mark of Slaanesh and sober roll makes him Initiative 7 which does seem a little high. Actually he'd be Initiative 6 - 3 base, +2 for Sober, +1 for Slaanesh. If it's still too much, I can reduce the bonus of Sober to +1 instead. I have a current lack of clarity as to whether the Mark of Slaanesh is then free for his Centigor unit? The +1 WS in the GW book was included for free but you mentioned Slaanesh being in place of any other Mark which infers that it is paid for? The Mark of Slaanesh is free for Ghorros' Centigor unit. GW version has light armor, yours currently doesn't. RAW GW version has a 5+ armor save (cavalry and light armor) whereas yours currently has no armor save at all. Not sure if this was deliberate. No, I missed that out, he should still have light armour. I'm assuming him not making Centigor core (unlike the GW book) is intentional? No, I think I made a mistake there in omitting that, it would be a shame to sacrifice this as it made sense back in the 7th Edition book. No more hangover from hell haha for the Centigor. Drunken giving Immune to Psychology now as well as Stubborn is cool but does mean they cannot flee charges anymore. Just double checking that this is intentional? They can't when Drunken but can when Sober, and can behave as per Fast Cavalry when Sober, meaning you essentially get 2 different units in 1 and you have to be adaptable to get the best use out of them, probably as the 7th Edition rules writers intended with the original table. I think 20 points for Centigor (vs the previous 25) seems fair and the command cost is fixed. They definitely needed a buff and here they have been buffed and points reduced. [/quote] I certainly agree they needed a points deduction (before that they cost more than Silver Helms which they would often lose against in melee 1 on 1, so I thought 20 was a suitable reduction alongside the buff I was giving to them). Slaanesh Movement 9 Centigor is interesting and now a Slaanesh sober Centigor is Initiative 6 which is massive. Again they would have Initiative 5 - 2 standard, plus 2 for Sober plus 1 for Slaanesh. However if you're still iffy about it I can reduce the Initiative bonus from Sober to +1. Warbeasts means they have a lower armor save than the GW version however, 5+ vs 4+. May be missing something here. As mentioned before I think, it doesn't make sense for them to have the +1 bonus when treated as Cavalry, because they are not a rider mounted on a horse, they are one creature. I certainly think the 5+ armour save for light armour and shield is fine for them, otherwise it will conflict with lore that emphasises the primitivity of Centigors, which would be synonymous with wearing little armour and thus not having much of a save. Ungor Hunters These are your rebranded Ungor Raiders from the GW Beastmen book. Given Raiders is an army rule this makes sense 😀 I have to say currently I don't like them as an option in your book the way that are. You have them at 5 points whereas stock GW book had them at 6 points. 6 points in GW book was very reasonable and they wrote very commonly taken not just by myself. I would basically always take at least one unit if 5 or 6 of them, usually a couple. You have made them arguably better by giving them the scouts rule as well. Perhaps I have priced them a little too cheaply - raising their cost per model to the original 6 or even 7 points might be the way to go here. GW version didn't allow them to take standards with I think was fair enough given their lore. I suppose there is a case for it with Skink Skirmishers vs Skink Cohorts, but personally I wasn't keen on it - if they can take Musicians, why shouldn't they have banners to strike fear into the enemy as well? No one would imo take the 15 point halfhorn/champion upgrade. I know they get an extra attack and BS so you have tried to cover both versions of Ungor with the Half horn upgrade but when a Bestigor, Minotaur or Centigor champion is 10 points I don't see anyone upgrading an Ungor for 15 points. It's currently the most expensive Champion upgrade in your army! I was wondering if that idea was really a wise one. Perhaps different 10-point champs for Looter and Hunter units would be better after all. It'll make things simpler at any rate. 10+ makes them very different to the GW 5-10 size which fundamentally changes the unit a lot. I wasn't fond of the choice of taking units of 5, and I debate how such a unit would even be viable - on average they'd hit with only 2-3 shots, which would translate to 1-2 wounds, which in all odds would be saved by armour, whereas units of 10+ can gang up on artillery crews and other similarly vulnerable units with ease, or even pose a challenge to another enemy missile unit if they're lucky. I want to get away from the favoured tactic with the 7th Edition book of just using ineffective minuscule chaff units to block the enemy until they inevitably die, it doesn't really fit the overall Beastman lore particularly well. That's the sort of stuff you would expect something like Wood Elves to do. GW version you could take a champion and a musician for 9 points, in your version it would be 20 points. That's down to 8th Edition pricings for Command models of any faction, I'm afraid, even Goblins suffer from the same condition.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 23, 2022 4:30:14 GMT
lordofskullpass Lol, last ditch attempt is an expression I am familiar with. That's pretty funny that I didn't guess that was what you meant in hindsight. For the next version definitely include include the "last" before ditch so that it makes sense. Going back to my breaking up sentences bit before it could just be changed to.. "It is believed that the Old Ones perished leading the races they created in a last ditch attempt to repel the might of Chaos." Short and sweet. "Although their creations ultimately managed to stem the Chaos tide through a combination of martial prowess and sorcery, the world writhed and bled like a wounded beast." This breaks the formerly chunky sentence up into 2 sentences and there is only 1 comma with less "and" included.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 24, 2022 0:37:33 GMT
Ghorros and Centigor
"Actually he'd be Initiative 6 - 3 base, +2 for Sober, +1 for Slaanesh. If it's still too much, I can reduce the bonus of Sober to +1 instead."
That seems fair enough, I mixed up your Slaanesh rule. Sober +2 initiative I think should stay as I liked it in the GW version.
Initiative 5 for sober Slaanesh Centigor and 6 for Ghorros isn't outlandish imo.
Overall I think Ghorros shouldn't have a worse save than his dudes (GW book had this issue). 5+ is fine which would match your centigor with light armor and shields. His Unicorn helmet could potentially give him +1 armor or maybe a scaly skin save? This would give him a 5+ which is the max you want the Centigor to have.
Mark of Slaanesh being free for his crew makes him a pretty good choice imo.
I quite like it with the 50/50 sober/drunk thing you have done and the different roles as you have explained.
Can Centigor parry save with their shields? Cavalry/mounted are excluded but currently RAW excluding charge turn with shield they can. Can Centigor occupy a building?
Ungor raiders.
Imo too cheap for sure currently. You could make scouts a 1 point optional upgrade.
No one will complain about the Half horn upgrade being op at 10 points.
For the mainline units 10 points across the board is fine (ie the main ungor block) but their is a precedent for cheaper unit upgrades for pleb units so it's not completely unheard of. Zombies for example in the official VC book have 5 point upgrades for musicians and standards. Admittedly Ungor aren't as plebby as zombies but it has been done before by GW in 8th edition.
I didn't agree with the WOC poison hound upgrade being 1 point fwiw...but maybe that's because I'm Beastmen biased 😅 . Seeing that upgrade at 1 point vs the 3 points in the Beastmen book annoyed me.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 24, 2022 1:19:30 GMT
Bestigors
Imo worked well with the official GW version and were balanced. I used to always forget they were leadership 7, not 8 so don't have an issue with you changing that. Not sure how I feel about them having the Ambush rule.
Neutral on the shield option at 1 point.
I don't like that you took away their magic standard option.
Stock great weapon Bestigor in the GW version are 12 points. In your version they would be 14 points so less competitive and I don't think the Leadership bump makes up for the 2 point increase.
In my head I had considered Slaanesh Bestigor with Banner of swiftness for Movement 7 being a potential issue but maybe this is why you removed the magic standard option?
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 24, 2022 1:26:55 GMT
Is there a drawback to Razorgor chariots that I'm missing?
Currently they are far too good at 120 points.
90 points for a Tuskgor chariot so the 30 points gets an extra toughness and wound in addition to way better mount attacks (higher number and strength)
At 145 in the stock book I still liked them (especially with Glottkin marks) and you have made them better with Leadership 8 and scythes to go along with a 25 point decrease.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 24, 2022 2:03:10 GMT
Correct, I was looking at it more from a wood elf viewpoint, the tree man ancient has a lower weapon skill and less attacks but same S, T and W as a normal tree man. So that was the reasoning behind my reply, maybe if the Tzaanbull had a higher initiative, what is the difference in stats between Ogre butcher and the standard Ogre wizard hero. Also same for Tyrant and slaughter master, what are the stat differences? I've attached the Ogre Kingdoms Bruiser vs wizard options profiles and points costs for your reference. Hopefully it appears readable. I haven't examined the Tzaanbull rules/profile yet. I'm thinking the Firebelly is the closest equivalent.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 24, 2022 16:16:18 GMT
Overall I think Ghorros shouldn't have a worse save than his dudes (GW book had this issue). 5+ is fine which would match your centigor with light armor and shields. His Unicorn helmet could potentially give him +1 armor or maybe a scaly skin save? This would give him a 5+ which is the max you want the Centigor to have. It would make sense for the Skull of the Unicorn Lord to give him a +1 bonus to his armour save as other helmets do. I will consider adding that in. Can Centigor parry save with their shields? Cavalry/mounted are excluded but currently RAW excluding charge turn with shield they can. They should be able to do this as per Infantry and Cavalry models. Can Centigor occupy a building? No, as big, cavalry-sized beasts they shouldn't be able to occupy buildings. I will append both of these answers to the Horsemen of the Wilds definition. Ungor raiders. Imo too cheap for sure currently. You could make scouts a 1 point optional upgrade. That's a nice idea, and the same could be applied to Ungor Hunters with Vanguard. For the mainline units 10 points across the board is fine (ie the main ungor block) but their is a precedent for cheaper unit upgrades for pleb units so it's not completely unheard of. Zombies for example in the official VC book have 5 point upgrades for musicians and standards. Admittedly Ungor aren't as plebby as zombies but it has been done before by GW in 8th edition. Ungors are more comparable with Goblins of all kinds, which have a 10 point command group model upgrade cost. I'll stick with that. I didn't agree with the WOC poison hound upgrade being 1 point fwiw...but maybe that's because I'm Beastmen biased 😅 . Seeing that upgrade at 1 point vs the 3 points in the Beastmen book annoyed me. Well now I've levelled the playing field, as GW didn't want to! Bestigors Not sure how I feel about them having the Ambush rule. I included a bit about it in the Lore - if the Beastlord or Shaman leading the army wants to Ambush, surely they'd bring their Bestigor retinue with them? I don't like that you took away their magic standard option. Urgh that was a mistake, I kept on thinking one thing I had missed out was Magic Standard upgrades for a lot of units that need one. Stock great weapon Bestigor in the GW version are 12 points. In your version they would be 14 points so less competitive and I don't think the Leadership bump makes up for the 2 point increase. Bear in mind the option to Ambush is also included in that overall increased points cost - they will count toward your total number of Ambushing units and can choose to be Ambushers themselves. However, I've just had a crib in my Dwarf book and noticed that I've priced the Great Weapon upgrade 1 point too much - for Dwarf Warriors, for example, it's 2 points rather than 3. That at the very least will be amended. In my head I had considered Slaanesh Bestigor with Banner of swiftness for Movement 7 being a potential issue but maybe this is why you removed the magic standard option? I wouldn't consider that an issue, because if they have taken Mark of Slaanesh then they will have missed out on the bonus attacks from Mark of Khorne and added resilience from either the Mark of Nurgle or Mark of Tzeentch - Slaaneshi Bestigors would be fast, but would only have a single attack each, and if they are equipped with Great Weapons the Initiative bonus would be no help in mitigating their Always Strikes Last special rule. Is there a drawback to Razorgor chariots that I'm missing? Currently they are far too good at 120 points. 90 points for a Tuskgor chariot so the 30 points gets an extra toughness and wound in addition to way better mount attacks (higher number and strength) At 145 in the stock book I still liked them (especially with Glottkin marks) and you have made them better with Leadership 8 and scythes to go along with a 25 point decrease. I made this reduction because the Warriors of Chaos Gorebeast Chariot is significantly stronger in profile and at 130 points is cheaper than the Razorgor Chariot was in 7th Edition. The Razorgor Chariot is slightly weaker even with the Leadership 8 and Scythes (both of which the Gorebeast Chariot also have) so it was only right to give it a discount.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 25, 2022 3:54:47 GMT
Overall I think Ghorros shouldn't have a worse save than his dudes (GW book had this issue). 5+ is fine which would match your centigor with light armor and shields. His Unicorn helmet could potentially give him +1 armor or maybe a scaly skin save? This would give him a 5+ which is the max you want the Centigor to have. It would make sense for the Skull of the Unicorn Lord to give him a +1 bonus to his armour save as other helmets do. I will consider adding that in. Can Centigor parry save with their shields? Cavalry/mounted are excluded but currently RAW excluding charge turn with shield they can. They should be able to do this as per Infantry and Cavalry models. Can Centigor occupy a building? No, as big, cavalry-sized beasts they shouldn't be able to occupy buildings. I will append both of these answers to the Horsemen of the Wilds definition. Ungor raiders. Imo too cheap for sure currently. You could make scouts a 1 point optional upgrade. That's a nice idea, and the same could be applied to Ungor Hunters with Vanguard. For the mainline units 10 points across the board is fine (ie the main ungor block) but their is a precedent for cheaper unit upgrades for pleb units so it's not completely unheard of. Zombies for example in the official VC book have 5 point upgrades for musicians and standards. Admittedly Ungor aren't as plebby as zombies but it has been done before by GW in 8th edition. Ungors are more comparable with Goblins of all kinds, which have a 10 point command group model upgrade cost. I'll stick with that. I didn't agree with the WOC poison hound upgrade being 1 point fwiw...but maybe that's because I'm Beastmen biased 😅 . Seeing that upgrade at 1 point vs the 3 points in the Beastmen book annoyed me. Well now I've levelled the playing field, as GW didn't want to! Bestigors Not sure how I feel about them having the Ambush rule. I included a bit about it in the Lore - if the Beastlord or Shaman leading the army wants to Ambush, surely they'd bring their Bestigor retinue with them? I don't like that you took away their magic standard option. Urgh that was a mistake, I kept on thinking one thing I had missed out was Magic Standard upgrades for a lot of units that need one. Stock great weapon Bestigor in the GW version are 12 points. In your version they would be 14 points so less competitive and I don't think the Leadership bump makes up for the 2 point increase. Bear in mind the option to Ambush is also included in that overall increased points cost - they will count toward your total number of Ambushing units and can choose to be Ambushers themselves. However, I've just had a crib in my Dwarf book and noticed that I've priced the Great Weapon upgrade 1 point too much - for Dwarf Warriors, for example, it's 2 points rather than 3. That at the very least will be amended. In my head I had considered Slaanesh Bestigor with Banner of swiftness for Movement 7 being a potential issue but maybe this is why you removed the magic standard option? I wouldn't consider that an issue, because if they have taken Mark of Slaanesh then they will have missed out on the bonus attacks from Mark of Khorne and added resilience from either the Mark of Nurgle or Mark of Tzeentch - Slaaneshi Bestigors would be fast, but would only have a single attack each, and if they are equipped with Great Weapons the Initiative bonus would be no help in mitigating their Always Strikes Last special rule. Is there a drawback to Razorgor chariots that I'm missing? Currently they are far too good at 120 points. 90 points for a Tuskgor chariot so the 30 points gets an extra toughness and wound in addition to way better mount attacks (higher number and strength) At 145 in the stock book I still liked them (especially with Glottkin marks) and you have made them better with Leadership 8 and scythes to go along with a 25 point decrease. I made this reduction because the Warriors of Chaos Gorebeast Chariot is significantly stronger in profile and at 130 points is cheaper than the Razorgor Chariot was in 7th Edition. The Razorgor Chariot is slightly weaker even with the Leadership 8 and Scythes (both of which the Gorebeast Chariot also have) so it was only right to give it a discount. Gorebeast chariot is only movement 6 though which is a big drawback. Official 8th rules they cannot march. I actually prefer Razorgor chariots for this reason. Nurgle marked Gorebeast chariots are a pain though. Gorebeast chariots are also under pointed and you said you were trying to avoid WOC power level. People hate Nurgle Gorebeast chariots. A skullcannon (DOC) at 135 points is also a better chariot for the points than a Razorgor one but that doesn't mean it should be aimed for. Excluding cannon chariots, Gorebeast chariots are the single best chariots in the game for the points and should not be the comparison starting point imo. Also the Beastmen Chariot internal balance (fine imo with the 7th edition book) is far more skewed now. 80 to 145 in original, 90 to 120 now. Massive % change. I know core to special but the internal balance between chariots has imo been shifted far too much. I feel like the best Chariot comparison would be the Dark Elf Cold One chariot at 115 points which is generally considered to be pretty well balanced (while still being a stinky asf elf). Whilst it does have some small shooting threat I'd consider the crew attacks to be a relative draw (elves arguably better on charge with spears and WS, asf helps long term but imo the Bestigor strength 6 gives the Beastmen the edge down the stretch). Both have movement 7, Cold One chariot has stupidity as a small drawback (low chance of failure but it does occasionally happen). Cold One chariot has a 3+ armor save but overall the Razorgor Chariot is considerably better with the extra wound being the biggest reason why. Access to marks for flexibility and crucially on the charge the Razorgor hits with a whopping 4 strength 6 attacks likely rerolling with primal fury (i agree with you that Beastmen mounts should get it). This crushes the 4 Cold One attacks even after the first round (4 strength 5 primal fury attacks vs 4 strength 4 attacks). The Cold One chariot is considered balanced overall, the Gorebeast Chariot is not. Both are in the special section, if a Razorgor Chariot only had 4 wounds like a Cold One Chariot then I'd be fine with the 120 points but it's objectively a lot better than a Cold One chariot both offensively in combat and durability wise with the extra wound for only a 5 point difference the way you have it currently. Fwiw, in my friendly 'Chillhammer' games which I gamesmaster we have a Gorebeast chariot at 150 points due to how staunch they are and Skullcannons at 175 points. They are much better balanced vs the rest of 8th edition at those point levels imo.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 25, 2022 7:03:39 GMT
Ograh the Malefic
Fascinating character, is this your own creation?
I like his little Lore snippet. Reminds me of Vlad Von Carstein a bit, wanting to use humans as cattle farms.
Very interesting special rules with the redeployment and peasant upgrades. You say up to half the units maybe upgraded with this, if there is only 1 Hunter unit I'm could he longbow peasants? RAW you'd need to take 2 units of hunters (ie 1 normal, 1 peasant).
What an absolute combat beast with the axes 🪓. 5 killing blow attacks, with -4 to armor ouch. Only a 5+ armor save though so seems ok to me balance wise.
Redeployment ability is unique and random.
Only issue is that the list entry has I5, but the lore entry only has I4 so these don't currently agree.
Cool art as well, looks very inspired by the Avatars of War beastlord with the arm and foot pose, but maybe it's the other way round.
Fun entry overall, I definitely like this one 😄
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 25, 2022 9:22:49 GMT
2 quick questions for the chariots.
With Mark of Slaanesh everyone gets +1 initiative right?
Why are Tzeentch and Nurgle upgrades more expensive for the Tuskgor Chariot than the Razorgor Chariot? (15 points vs 10)
Tuskgor strength 3 only in Army list.
I'm probably missing something but tusker charge rule I couldn't see? It's in the army list version.
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Post by lordofskullpass on Aug 26, 2022 13:13:56 GMT
Gorebeast chariot is only movement 6 though which is a big drawback. Official 8th rules they cannot march. I actually prefer Razorgor chariots for this reason. Nurgle marked Gorebeast chariots are a pain though. Gorebeast chariots are also under pointed and you said you were trying to avoid WOC power level. People hate Nurgle Gorebeast chariots. A skullcannon (DOC) at 135 points is also a better chariot for the points than a Razorgor one but that doesn't mean it should be aimed for. Excluding cannon chariots, Gorebeast chariots are the single best chariots in the game for the points and should not be the comparison starting point imo. Also the Beastmen Chariot internal balance (fine imo with the 7th edition book) is far more skewed now. 80 to 145 in original, 90 to 120 now. Massive % change. I know core to special but the internal balance between chariots has imo been shifted far too much. I feel like the best Chariot comparison would be the Dark Elf Cold One chariot at 115 points which is generally considered to be pretty well balanced (while still being a stinky asf elf). Whilst it does have some small shooting threat I'd consider the crew attacks to be a relative draw (elves arguably better on charge with spears and WS, asf helps long term but imo the Bestigor strength 6 gives the Beastmen the edge down the stretch). Both have movement 7, Cold One chariot has stupidity as a small drawback (low chance of failure but it does occasionally happen). Cold One chariot has a 3+ armor save but overall the Razorgor Chariot is considerably better with the extra wound being the biggest reason why. Access to marks for flexibility and crucially on the charge the Razorgor hits with a whopping 4 strength 6 attacks likely rerolling with primal fury (i agree with you that Beastmen mounts should get it). This crushes the 4 Cold One attacks even after the first round (4 strength 5 primal fury attacks vs 4 strength 4 attacks). The Cold One chariot is considered balanced overall, the Gorebeast Chariot is not. Both are in the special section, if a Razorgor Chariot only had 4 wounds like a Cold One Chariot then I'd be fine with the 120 points but it's objectively a lot better than a Cold One chariot both offensively in combat and durability wise with the extra wound for only a 5 point difference the way you have it currently. Fwiw, in my friendly 'Chillhammer' games which I gamesmaster we have a Gorebeast chariot at 150 points due to how staunch they are and Skullcannons at 175 points. They are much better balanced vs the rest of 8th edition at those point levels imo. That's certainly a very fair point, I'll see if I can raise the Razorgor Chariot's cost, I think to 150 as per your Chillhammer Gorebeast Chariot cost (and perhaps you could then raise the Gorebeast Chariot to 155 or 160). Ograh the Malefic Fascinating character, is this your own creation? Nope, he was first created in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd Edition, and has his own page in the Warhammer Fantasy Wiki: warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Harrowmaw_TribeI thought he was such a great character that he had to be included in my Beastman book with rules to allow you to make an allied army of Beastmen and indebted Bretonnian peasants. I like his little Lore snippet. Reminds me of Vlad Von Carstein a bit, wanting to use humans as cattle farms. His story is just so unique and highlights how much Beastmen are a black parody of humanity (in the opposite way to Skaven), and don't deserve to be lumped as 'Chaos Orcs and Goblins'. It also adds an interesting stance to the Mousillon campaign, making it a 3-way fight between the Bretonnians, Vampire Counts and the Beastmen, very much like the Karak Eight Peaks campaign between the Dwarfs, Greenskins and Skaven. Very interesting special rules with the redeployment and peasant upgrades. You say up to half the units maybe upgraded with this, if there is only 1 Hunter unit I'm could he longbow peasants? RAW you'd need to take 2 units of hunters (ie 1 normal, 1 peasant). Yes I will add additional clarification so that you can upgrade half of your Hunter units into Reverent Peasant units, rounding up, so that 1 Hunter unit alone can take the upgrade, if you had 3 units then 2 could take the upgrade, e.t.c What an absolute combat beast with the axes 🪓. 5 killing blow attacks, with -4 to armor ouch. Only a 5+ armor save though so seems ok to me balance wise. Yep I wanted to make him another killy character but vulnerable to return attacks, because let's face it, Beastmen aren't known for their magical armour Only issue is that the list entry has I5, but the lore entry only has I4 so these don't currently agree. Hmm, strange I mucked that up, I'll fix that. I believe he should be Initiative 4, as in lore he is rotund and should have slower reflexes than the average Beastman. Cool art as well, looks very inspired by the Avatars of War beastlord with the arm and foot pose, but maybe it's the other way round. This piece was actually borrowed directly from the 7th Edition book, page 17, accompanying 'The Dark Night of Karak Hirn'. It is one of my favourite Beastman artworks and because there are no definite illustrations for Ograh I wanted to build Ograh's equipment and combat rules around it. It also gave me the chance to salvage another of the Magic Items from the 7th Edition book, the Axe of Men, now turned into multiple Axes to fit the illustration, because it just fit so well as a magic item for a Beastlord that has spent all his time terrorising and enslaving Bretonnian peasants. I can see how the Avatars of War model is similar: It's likely it was inspired by that illustration, and it would make a good model for him if you can give it a second axe. 2 quick questions for the chariots. With Mark of Slaanesh everyone gets +1 initiative right? Why are Tzeentch and Nurgle upgrades more expensive for the Tuskgor Chariot than the Razorgor Chariot? (15 points vs 10) I think this must be a mistake made not only by myself but GW as well - in the WOC book the Chaos Chariot's Nurgle upgrade costs 15 points while that of the Gorebeast Chariot is only 10, and I reflected that in my own army list for some reason. The Mark of Tzeetch I had originally planned to be different to Beastmen (a 5+ Ward Save rather than 6+ and re-roll channelling rolls of 1) which prompted the increased cost for the Tuskgor Chariot, but I think both should be reduced to 10 for both chariots. Tuskgor strength 3 only in Army list. I'm probably missing something but tusker charge rule I couldn't see? It's in the army list version. I had originally intended for Tuskgors to be Strength 3 and have the Tusker Charge special rule shared by Greenskin Boar units (as per the 6th Edition book), because they are just mutated boars but I changed my mind and reverted them to Strength 4 without Tusker Charge as that was another thing that distanced Beastmen from Orcs and Goblins - perhaps the mutations make them stronger than Orc Boars. I shall amend that in the army list.
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