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Post by sedge on Jan 2, 2024 13:45:23 GMT
Related question to forum organisation - where should I be re-posting photos/news on new releases? I've been doing it for the last 5 years, and it's a major way of keeping people engaged, so I want to keep it going. For Games Workshop releases, I've always used the New Games Workshop Previews thread, which is the most popular one on the forum. But TOW stuff has been posted here recently. Interest in new models kind of applies across both games, and generally TOW models are usable for Warhammer Fantasy 8th edition, and other fantasy releases (e.g. AoS stuff) will sometimes be usable for TOW as well. I'd rather not post new stuff to both threads. Same issue for other manufacturers (e.g. Mierce) who release models relevant to both games. ---------------I like that you do this sedge - what if you just post TOW new releases in the TOW forum and everything else stays in the WFB forum? I think that works fine. I thought about this more, and I don't think it's the best way of handling things. I think people generally want to see new stuff in one place. 8th edition-only players will still be interested in TOW model releases, and TOW-only players could still be interested in AoS models that work for the game, or stuff from 3rd party manufacturers. It's not much effort to check two forums, but if we keep new releases to two separate forums, we'll continue to get people posting TOW stuff in both forums, as we get at present, with the discussion being split as well. If there are some forums being shared (such as the modelling or arranging games ones) between all games, then potentially a "New Releases" forum could also be shared that has all the threads for new minis?
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Post by sedge on Jan 2, 2024 13:55:05 GMT
1) Base size swaps. That's nothing but an attempt to force veteran players to drop their old editions to fully embrace TOW and ensure it's success. I don't buy the whole, "It looks better!" argument. Maybe in some cases, but definitely not all. The sheer amount of hoops that poses for people, like myself, to shift the mere playability of armies, just so it "looks better"? I love the way my (12!) armies look! Yes, there are a FEW cases when I had to take a moment to actually THINK about how to position the figures on their bases, but that's like saying it's too tedious to have to decide between hamburgers or cheeseburgers! Is it going to stop me from playing? No, I'll get the appropriate size base, and stick my models on it. Eventually, I'll 3D print off enough trays or individual base converters to use. I can't remember what GW gave as their explanation for base size changes, but I don't think their actual reason is "looks better". I think it's to accommodate crossover units that exist both in Warhammer Fantasy and AoS without compromising the design favoured for their headline fantasy game (AoS), whose skirmish formations favour more dynamic poses. Like the new Chaos Chosen or Chaos Warriors - they don't fit on 25mm squares (I've tried with the Chosen) but they are actual WFB units too, and it's unlikely GW will want to continue to manufacture and sell the old kits alongside the new ones, not least because TOW players will more often than not want to use the new plastics. The kits are bigger because they're more dynamic to fit in with AoS's skirmish look, and therefore need larger squares to rank up on. It's annoying, and I have no intention of rebasing old models, but it should help GW sell new models to a wider audience, and that's what they like to do...
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Post by KevinC on Jan 2, 2024 14:34:10 GMT
---------------I like that you do this sedge - what if you just post TOW new releases in the TOW forum and everything else stays in the WFB forum? I think that works fine. I thought about this more, and I don't think it's the best way of handling things. I think people generally want to see new stuff in one place. 8th edition-only players will still be interested in TOW model releases, and TOW-only players could still be interested in AoS models that work for the game, or stuff from 3rd party manufacturers. It's not much effort to check two forums, but if we keep new releases to two separate forums, we'll continue to get people posting TOW stuff in both forums, as we get at present, with the discussion being split as well. If there are some forums being shared (such as the modelling or arranging games ones) between all games, then potentially a "New Releases" forum could also be shared that has all the threads for new minis? --------I see your point, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to great a 3rd separate board. I think if players are playing one game (WFB or TOW) they will go to that board and they won't want to see a WFB army list under TOW army lists. I think there needs to be a separation. It seems people are going back and forth on the board as is.
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Post by mottdon on Jan 2, 2024 14:41:54 GMT
1) Base size swaps. That's nothing but an attempt to force veteran players to drop their old editions to fully embrace TOW and ensure it's success. I don't buy the whole, "It looks better!" argument. Maybe in some cases, but definitely not all. The sheer amount of hoops that poses for people, like myself, to shift the mere playability of armies, just so it "looks better"? I love the way my (12!) armies look! Yes, there are a FEW cases when I had to take a moment to actually THINK about how to position the figures on their bases, but that's like saying it's too tedious to have to decide between hamburgers or cheeseburgers! Is it going to stop me from playing? No, I'll get the appropriate size base, and stick my models on it. Eventually, I'll 3D print off enough trays or individual base converters to use. I can't remember what GW gave as their explanation for base size changes, but I don't think their actual reason is "looks better". I think it's to accommodate crossover units that exist both in Warhammer Fantasy and AoS without compromising the design favoured for their headline fantasy game (AoS), whose skirmish formations favour more dynamic poses. Like the new Chaos Chosen or Chaos Warriors - they don't fit on 25mm squares (I've tried with the Chosen) but they are actual WFB units too, and it's unlikely GW will want to continue to manufacture and sell the old kits alongside the new ones, not least because TOW players will more often than not want to use the new plastics. The kits are bigger because they're more dynamic to fit in with AoS's skirmish look, and therefore need larger squares to rank up on. It's annoying, and I have no intention of rebasing old models, but it should help GW sell new models to a wider audience, and that's what they like to do... Yeah, I'm sure GW gave some BS excuse like that, but "it looks better" is how many on Facebook are explaining it. Either way, it's not a good reasoning. If a few crossover units need a base change, then change THAT unit. Not the entire game. There are plenty of "upgraded" units that work in the 8th edition scale too. I painted a unit of 6 Stone Trolls a while back that fit on 40x40's perfectly. That's like seeing a drop of white paint on your brown house, and saying, "Well, I guess I should paint the whole house white, then!". Aren't they trying to keep units created for AoS, from being used in TOW, anyway? I thought I remembered reading something about that. I'm not trying to argue about it, I just don't really see the point. That's a drawback for me. If there was some legitimate gaming point, say, for movement, range, or even formation considerations, then I could follow that reasoning. As is, it just feels like putting blinders on players to keep them focused on the TOW path.
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Post by sedge on Jan 2, 2024 14:44:30 GMT
I might not have been very clear - I was thinking a structure like:
Warhammer Fantasy section ->New Releases ->Painting and Hobby Projects ---->Monthly Painting Challenges" ->Locate other players and events
8th Edition section ->Eight Edition for Life general discussion ->EEFL Army Lists ->Get the Rules Right: WFB 8th Edition Rules Questions ->EEFL Battle Reports! ->EEFL Warhammer Tactics & Stratagems ---->Bretonnia Tactics ---->Chaos Tactics ---->etc. ->Army Book & Expansion Development ->Special Scenarios and New Ways to Play! ->The World-That-Was: EEFL Campaigns & Chronicles!
The Old World section ->The Old World general discussion
->Army Lists of The Old World ->Get the Rules Right: TOW Rules Questions
->TOW Battle Reports!
->TOW Warhammer Tactics & Stratagems
---->Beastmen Brayherds ---->Dwarfen Mountain Holds ---->etc. ->Army Book & Expansion Development (I think this will be popular for developing unsupported army rules) ->Special Scenarios and New Ways to Play! (might be premature for TOW) ->TOW Campaigns & Chronicles! (might be premature for TOW)
Discussions for Heretics section ->Other Wargaming Discussion
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Post by sedge on Jan 2, 2024 14:48:53 GMT
Aren't they trying to keep units created for AoS, from being used in TOW, anyway? I thought I remembered reading something about that. Yeah, if the unit is a new concept for AoS, it won't be getting rules for TOW - so things like Tzaangors, despite existing in WFB fluff from years ago, haven't had WFB rules in any recent editions of the game, so they won't for TOW. But Chaos Chosen were always a WFB unit, so I expect they'll use the new models for TOW too. I may be wrong though - we haven't seen a Warriors of Chaos army yet in TOW, and I think they're the ones that would tell us for certain. The only other proper WFB units for TOW armies that got replacement kits in AoS are Black Orcs and a Beastman Wargor.
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Post by thegoat on Jan 2, 2024 15:37:48 GMT
I can't remember what GW gave as their explanation for base size changes, but I don't think their actual reason is "looks better". I think it's to accommodate crossover units that exist both in Warhammer Fantasy and AoS without compromising the design favoured for their headline fantasy game (AoS), whose skirmish formations favour more dynamic poses. Like the new Chaos Chosen or Chaos Warriors - they don't fit on 25mm squares (I've tried with the Chosen) but they are actual WFB units too, and it's unlikely GW will want to continue to manufacture and sell the old kits alongside the new ones, not least because TOW players will more often than not want to use the new plastics. The kits are bigger because they're more dynamic to fit in with AoS's skirmish look, and therefore need larger squares to rank up on. It's annoying, and I have no intention of rebasing old models, but it should help GW sell new models to a wider audience, and that's what they like to do... Yeah, I'm sure GW gave some BS excuse like that, but "it looks better" is how many on Facebook are explaining it. Either way, it's not a good reasoning. If a few crossover units need a base change, then change THAT unit. Not the entire game. There are plenty of "upgraded" units that work in the 8th edition scale too. I painted a unit of 6 Stone Trolls a while back that fit on 40x40's perfectly. That's like seeing a drop of white paint on your brown house, and saying, "Well, I guess I should paint the whole house white, then!". Aren't they trying to keep units created for AoS, from being used in TOW, anyway? I thought I remembered reading something about that. I'm not trying to argue about it, I just don't really see the point. That's a drawback for me. If there was some legitimate gaming point, say, for movement, range, or even formation considerations, then I could follow that reasoning. As is, it just feels like putting blinders on players to keep them focused on the TOW path. New citadel models are much larger these days. Just look at the new Bretonnia foot knights models. They are massive and occupy the entire 25mm bases they are mounted on. I think they are going to look dumb standing next to the 6th edition Bretonnia units. For better or worse lot of people think the new larger models "look better". Also larger models justify a higher price tag and smaller model count per box. I think that is the driving force behind the move to larger bases. Not aesthetics but model sales.
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Post by herjan1987 on Jan 2, 2024 15:41:03 GMT
Yeah, I'm sure GW gave some BS excuse like that, but "it looks better" is how many on Facebook are explaining it. Either way, it's not a good reasoning. If a few crossover units need a base change, then change THAT unit. Not the entire game. There are plenty of "upgraded" units that work in the 8th edition scale too. I painted a unit of 6 Stone Trolls a while back that fit on 40x40's perfectly. That's like seeing a drop of white paint on your brown house, and saying, "Well, I guess I should paint the whole house white, then!". Aren't they trying to keep units created for AoS, from being used in TOW, anyway? I thought I remembered reading something about that. I'm not trying to argue about it, I just don't really see the point. That's a drawback for me. If there was some legitimate gaming point, say, for movement, range, or even formation considerations, then I could follow that reasoning. As is, it just feels like putting blinders on players to keep them focused on the TOW path. New citadel models are much larger these days. Just look at the new Bretonnia foot knights models. They are massive and occupy the entire 25mm bases they are mounted on. I think they are going to look dumb standing next to the 6th edition Bretonnia units. For better or worse lot of people think the new larger models "look better". Also larger models justify a higher price tag and smaller model count per box. I think that is the driving force behind the move to larger bases. Not aesthetics but model sales. Foot Knights have 20 mini ín the box.
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Post by thegoat on Jan 2, 2024 15:57:21 GMT
New citadel models are much larger these days. Just look at the new Bretonnia foot knights models. They are massive and occupy the entire 25mm bases they are mounted on. I think they are going to look dumb standing next to the 6th edition Bretonnia units. For better or worse lot of people think the new larger models "look better". Also larger models justify a higher price tag and smaller model count per box. I think that is the driving force behind the move to larger bases. Not aesthetics but model sales. Foot Knights have 20 mini ín the box. I guess you are trying to say twenty is a high model count despite the models being large? My point above is observing a general trend. Of coarse there will be outlier examples. Also model count is also balanced by price. Do we know the price of the foot knight kit? I bet the price per model will be higher than the Bretonnia men at arms and pesent bowmen kits.
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Post by herjan1987 on Jan 2, 2024 16:04:14 GMT
Foot Knights have 20 mini ín the box. I guess you are trying to say twenty is a high model count despite the models being large? My point above is observing a general trend. Of coarse there will be outlier examples. Also modjel count is also balanced by price. Do we know the price of the foot knight kit? I bet the price per model will be higher than the Bretonnia men at arms and pesent bowmen kits. Sorry for being vague. I write from a phone and quite dislike doing. I just wanted to say, that it is not as bad as it seems imo.
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Post by Naitsabes on Jan 2, 2024 17:46:33 GMT
I might not have been very clear - I was thinking a structure like: Warhammer Fantasy section ->New Releases ->Painting and Hobby Projects ---->Monthly Painting Challenges" ->Locate other players and events 8th Edition section ->Eight Edition for Life general discussion ->EEFL Army Lists ->Get the Rules Right: WFB 8th Edition Rules Questions ->EEFL Battle Reports! ->EEFL Warhammer Tactics & Stratagems ---->Bretonnia Tactics ---->Chaos Tactics ---->etc. ->Army Book & Expansion Development ->Special Scenarios and New Ways to Play! ->The World-That-Was: EEFL Campaigns & Chronicles! The Old World section ->The Old World general discussion ->Army Lists of The Old World ->Get the Rules Right: TOW Rules Questions ->TOW Battle Reports! ->TOW Warhammer Tactics & Stratagems ---->Beastmen Brayherds ---->Dwarfen Mountain Holds ---->etc. ->Army Book & Expansion Development (I think this will be popular for developing unsupported army rules) ->Special Scenarios and New Ways to Play! (might be premature for TOW) ->TOW Campaigns & Chronicles! (might be premature for TOW) Discussions for Heretics section ->Other Wargaming Discussion
I really like the new releases threads. Hope that keeps going.
That said, too many subforum sections are a bit of a hassle. Couldn't there just be a single 'New Releases' thread for all manufacturer's, maybe in the common Painting/Hobby section?
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Post by jer732 on Jan 2, 2024 23:21:38 GMT
This is an interesting discussion you are having and as expected the existence of this TOW sub forum has attracted at least one old WFB player who moved on to other things, but is really excited for the return of Fantasy.
I didn't even know this forum existed until I did some Googling, looking for some more elevated conversation on TOW than can be found among the denizens of Reddit.
Lo and behold, I find a post from Kevin Trollman my frequent former Warhammer team event collaborator of Warmonger Team Alpha Omega fame.
I am hoping to get my Wood Elves back into fighting shape and maybe finish the Lizardmen army I started right at the end of 8th. In the meantime, I'm happy to have a place to discuss Warhammer.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Jan 3, 2024 9:45:58 GMT
I thought about this more, and I don't think it's the best way of handling things. I think people generally want to see new stuff in one place. 8th edition-only players will still be interested in TOW model releases, and TOW-only players could still be interested in AoS models that work for the game, or stuff from 3rd party manufacturers. It's not much effort to check two forums, but if we keep new releases to two separate forums, we'll continue to get people posting TOW stuff in both forums, as we get at present, with the discussion being split as well. If there are some forums being shared (such as the modelling or arranging games ones) between all games, then potentially a "New Releases" forum could also be shared that has all the threads for new minis? --------I see your point, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to great a 3rd separate board. I think if players are playing one game (WFB or TOW) they will go to that board and they won't want to see a WFB army list under TOW army lists. I think there needs to be a separation. It seems people are going back and forth on the board as is. I'm not sure if it's doable but I'd like to see the 'New releases' topic (a single topic) viewable/accessible from both the main eefl forum section as well as the TOW section. This way it will get more traffic/posts and it's relevant for both games.
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Post by KevinC on Jan 3, 2024 17:45:49 GMT
This is an interesting discussion you are having and as expected the existence of this TOW sub forum has attracted at least one old WFB player who moved on to other things, but is really excited for the return of Fantasy. I didn't even know this forum existed until I did some Googling, looking for some more elevated conversation on TOW than can be found among the denizens of Reddit. Lo and behold, I find a post from Kevin Trollman my frequent former Warhammer team event collaborator of Warmonger Team Alpha Omega fame. I am hoping to get my Wood Elves back into fighting shape and maybe finish the Lizardmen army I started right at the end of 8th. In the meantime, I'm happy to have a place to discuss Warhammer. ---Yes welcome back! Who is this? haha
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