|
|
Post by mottdon on Jan 20, 2024 4:19:27 GMT
I'm seeing a lot of FB conversations regarding the loss of step up with TOW. Lol, it seems to be bringing out all the 8th edition haters. (Which I just don't get WHY they're so butthurt over 8th.)
But, anyway, I just don't really see how infantry units are going to stand up to frontal cav charges, lose, get pushed back, only to be charged again, and start the whole process over.
Am I missing something obvious?
|
|
|
|
Post by TyrrenAzureblade on Jan 20, 2024 4:45:56 GMT
There are things like Shield Wall that allow you to Give Ground instead of Fall Back in Good Order or Flee the first time you're charged, there are still ways to stack static Combat Resolution, spears give +1 Initiative when charged, if you're expecting a charge you can Redress the Ranks and increase your frontage to give you more attacks, and I'm sure a few more that aren't coming to mind.
Personally, I wish Step Up had stayed in like it was in 8th, and I also have the sneaking suspicion that cavalry is going to be very very powerful against infantry. But Heavy Calvary, the real hard hitters, are also very very expensive, and now that it's harder to make a unit Break and Flee, there's a good chance they can get mired in a fight and become open to Flank/Rear charges.
I don't know, a lot of people are jumping to conclusions without having played a single game or having the BBB in-hand (myself included). People aren't seeing the big picture yet and are unduly panicking or doom-and-glooming themselves into a frenzy.
|
|
|
|
Post by thorpyuk on Jan 20, 2024 15:01:27 GMT
I'm seeing a lot of FB conversations regarding the loss of step up with TOW. Lol, it seems to be bringing out all the 8th edition haters. (Which I just don't get WHY they're so butthurt over 8th.) But, anyway, I just don't really see how infantry units are going to stand up to frontal cav charges, lose, get pushed back, only to be charged again, and start the whole process over. Am I missing something obvious? Agreed... while 8th wasn't perfect, it bought some big improvements- a lot of which seem to have been removed: Random charges- big improvement, and brought a bit of jeopardy to each charge... the one area that TOW might be a slight improvement is that it's M+1D6 rather than M+2D6... as a Dwarf player, going to 6" range on the charge to between 5" and 15" seemed a bit too generous. Shoot in 2 ranks- massive improvement Step-up - the biggest improvement for me, because it actually meant you got to strike back with your big unit. Losing it will stop me playing TOW. As a Dwarf player,I can remember playing Bretonia in 6th/7th. It was simply - receive the charge, front rank gets slaughtered, lose combat massively, run away, game over |
|
lost
New Member
Posts: 49
|
Post by lost on Jan 20, 2024 15:25:18 GMT
I'm seeing a lot of FB conversations regarding the loss of step up with TOW. Lol, it seems to be bringing out all the 8th edition haters. (Which I just don't get WHY they're so butthurt over 8th.) But, anyway, I just don't really see how infantry units are going to stand up to frontal cav charges, lose, get pushed back, only to be charged again, and start the whole process over. Am I missing something obvious? Agreed... while 8th wasn't perfect, it bought some big improvements- a lot of which seem to have been removed: Random charges- big improvement, and brought a bit of jeopardy to each charge... the one area that TOW might be a slight improvement is that it's M+1D6 rather than M+2D6... as a Dwarf player, going to 6" range on the charge to between 5" and 15" seemed a bit too generous. Shoot in 2 ranks- massive improvement Step-up - the biggest improvement for me, because it actually meant you got to strike back with your big unit. Losing it will stop me playing TOW. As a Dwarf player,I can remember playing Bretonia in 6th/7th. It was simply - receive the charge, front rank gets slaughtered, lose combat massively, run away, game over This. I agree with the improvements in 8th you list. Hate no step up rule. One other thing I liked about 8th that I felt was lost in End Times was the split in points for lords and heroes at 25% each. I know that’s not a popular opinion but I feel the 50% total, allowing 50% lords, makes it weighted on characters. When I can run a fully kitted chaos lord on a dragon in a 1500 or game it feels a little unbalanced. |
|
|
|
Post by chronicallychaotic66 on Jan 20, 2024 18:25:52 GMT
I'm seeing a lot of FB conversations regarding the loss of step up with TOW. Lol, it seems to be bringing out all the 8th edition haters. (Which I just don't get WHY they're so butthurt over 8th.) But, anyway, I just don't really see how infantry units are going to stand up to frontal cav charges, lose, get pushed back, only to be charged again, and start the whole process over. Am I missing something obvious? I’ve been feeling the same way about this, visualising the plastic bestigor I’m finally painting now getting repeatedly pasted by Bret knights smashing in to their front. I’m using Brets as my baseline enemy here as they will be everywhere and like ThorpyUK I have unpleasant memories from editions before 8th of my heavy infantry (dwarfs, chaos warriors, my old metal bestigor) getting run over exactly as he describes. But I’ve been waiting until I get the books in hand to try and get my head round all the rules interactions that will affect this ( as there are so many in this game) before I despair. Tyrrenazureblade has made some good points. Shieldwall (plus chaffing with spammable cheap gyros, which we did not have in 7th - max 2 at 140 pts each) seems to give Dwarfs some solid tools to work with. For beasts, now i’ve got my books I’m starting my rules deep dive with FBIGO. Which is a flee move so if you have an expendable unit directly behind your main unit you will hop beyond that (flee thru friends until clear like 8th) and the pursuers will hit the other unit instead of the bestigor. How much use is this? First draft sneaky plan. Lots can go wrong with this (first and foremost the expendable unit panicking - tho using a chaos spawn gets around that). Flank charge with a chariot or something, pin them in place so they lose their next charge opportunity, the expendable models die, you then get to charge with your bestigor. If you’ve been hit by 2 Bret lances at once, one could be stuck on the spawn, the other pursue straight into your bestigor, on the side where the beastlord is, with a flanking chariot waiting. You rally auto at the end of FBIGO. Do you get to reform (I.e. go wider for more attacks)? EDIT - checked this now, this works. You get a free reform when you rally, you auto rally at the end of your FBIGO move. I’m assuming you could keep a spawn just constantly butting into the back of your unit, need to double check the random movement rules. EDIT checked this too, nothing in the random movement rules stopping this. |
|
|
|
Post by mrbaldrick on Jan 23, 2024 0:38:47 GMT
No Step Up, No supporting attacks, and super characters makes ToW feel like a return to 5th & 6th. That is going to be a hard pass for me. I've watched a few batreps and several rules reviews. I haven't seen anything that would make me leave 8th. I played HeroHammer back in the day and have no desire to return to that style game.
|
|
|
|
Post by TyrrenAzureblade on Jan 23, 2024 4:54:25 GMT
I also feel like a lot of flavorful faction rules and identity have been stripped in favor of universal special rules, which do help tie the game together, but it makes factions feel lesser than their 7th/8th versions. I’m going to give TOW a real try and so far my first game was a blast, but my heart is still squarely in 8th. I think it’s still the best edition, but I’m willing to give TOW a chance to become a beloved edition.
|
|
|
|
Post by mottdon on Jan 23, 2024 6:11:55 GMT
Yeah, I expected there to be differences between games, but the loss of step up might just break it for me. That's a HUGE portion of what made 8th my favorite edition.
I haven't played a game yet, so I'll reserve my opinion until I feel as though I've got a true read on the flow of this edition, but this definitely has me concerned.
I'd much rather have TOW than AoS though. Hopefully, the money made from TOW will cause the GW executives to sit up and take note, realize their horrible mistakes, and return to the traditional Warhammer Fantasy format.
|
|
|
|
Post by herjan1987 on Jan 23, 2024 18:30:33 GMT
Yeah, I expected there to be differences between games, but the loss of step up might just break it for me. That's a HUGE portion of what made 8th my favorite edition. I haven't played a game yet, so I'll reserve my opinion until I feel as though I've got a true read on the flow of this edition, but this definitely has me concerned. I'd much rather have TOW than AoS though. Hopefully, the money made from TOW will cause the GW executives to sit up and take note, realize their horrible mistakes, and return to the traditional Warhammer Fantasy format. Hope so manling, then I can strike out a entry from the Great Book of Grudges, otherwise GW will meet its demise, by the Dwarfs.  |
|
|
|
Post by KevinC on Jan 24, 2024 17:32:56 GMT
The loss of step up and supporting attacks means infantry is not as effective in the same way as 8th edition and small units can be more viable.
|
|
|
|
Post by xomitsious on Jan 26, 2024 17:45:17 GMT
I think the main reason step up is gone, is because they allow the whole front rank to fight. Had they kept it, the new rule would have been overpowered.
So I think they had a choice between the two rules and chose the new one. I suspect they wanted to give players a reason to go wide too, since we always had advantages when going deep, and they probably wanted to make both formation styles viable.
I liked step up, as I've always found anti immersive to play without it, but I'm happy to try out the new rules before I draw any conclusions whether removing it was a good idea or not.
|
|
|
|
Post by mrbaldrick on Jan 27, 2024 23:16:04 GMT
The loss of step up and supporting attacks means infantry is not as effective in the same way as 8th edition and small units can be more viable. I don't really see how. They weren't very viable in pre 8th editions. In 5th - 7th infantry units were a tax you paid to get cavalry and heroes. In the pre 8th days you needed what was called "the magic 5" to win combats. Causing 5 wounds negated your opponents rank bonus and standard. It also whipped out you opponents attacks back. Before 8th, heavy cav was king. I remember going to tournaments in 6th & 7th and getting laughed at for bringing thematic halberdiers. I see ToW being exactly the same. Infantry will be useless and it will be all heros and ridden monsters. |
|
|
|
Post by KevinC on Jan 28, 2024 2:17:28 GMT
The loss of step up and supporting attacks means infantry is not as effective in the same way as 8th edition and small units can be more viable. I don't really see how. They weren't very viable in pre 8th editions. In 5th - 7th infantry units were a tax you paid to get cavalry and heroes. In the pre 8th days you needed what was called "the magic 5" to win combats. Causing 5 wounds negated your opponents rank bonus and standard. It also whipped out you opponents attacks back. Before 8th, heavy cav was king. I remember going to tournaments in 6th & 7th and getting laughed at for bringing thematic halberdiers. I see ToW being exactly the same. Infantry will be useless and it will be all heros and ridden monsters. ---------Not sure what you're saying. I'm my view, infantry was KING in WFB 8th edition. I think you misread my original statement, but not sure. Are you staying infantry is not good in WFB 8? |
|
|
|
Post by mrbaldrick on Jan 28, 2024 16:34:52 GMT
I don't really see how. They weren't very viable in pre 8th editions. In 5th - 7th infantry units were a tax you paid to get cavalry and heroes. In the pre 8th days you needed what was called "the magic 5" to win combats. Causing 5 wounds negated your opponents rank bonus and standard. It also whipped out you opponents attacks back. Before 8th, heavy cav was king. I remember going to tournaments in 6th & 7th and getting laughed at for bringing thematic halberdiers. I see ToW being exactly the same. Infantry will be useless and it will be all heros and ridden monsters. ---------Not sure what you're saying. I'm my view, infantry was KING in WFB 8th edition. I think you misread my original statement, but not sure. Are you staying infantry is not good in WFB 8? Seemed like you were saying smaller units will be more viable in ToW. I don't think they will because the enemy will charge in with cav, kill the front rank, you get no attacks back and then you get run down. Just like in 5th - 7th. Smaller 15-25 man blocks have a place in 8th. They are better for bunkers to protect wizards and guard warmachine flanks. They will not be your front line troops. |
|
|
|
Post by pellegrim on Jan 28, 2024 17:16:47 GMT
Seeing some battle reports (yes there are great battle reports being made, gahd I missed that) this isn't really an issue. Infantry has its merrit for sure. The battle report between warriors and brettonia showed blocks of cav being slammed by infantry blocks.
Cant wait to get some games in
|
|
