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Post by Anaris on Apr 8, 2017 10:56:37 GMT
So I have a concern. What is the average ideal unit size? I know it's different for some units if they are horde or elite, but I play against Boldo and he takes his units of dwarves minimum 40 and does horde formation. I can't break through or ever win in close combat with him. Neither with my orcs nor warriors of chaos.
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Post by Horace on Apr 8, 2017 11:27:18 GMT
Well when someone rolls with big deathstar units you have two choices really, go like for like and build a bigger deathstar, or alternatively construct a list to deal with it either by blocking or destroying. I personally find big units easier to deal with, they are not very manouverable (we use plenty of scenery) and it presents you with a number 1 option to throw all your destruction at. Those Dwarfs are all very expensive, O&G have many tools to deliver pain to large armoured units. Fanatics & Manglers being 2 very destructive options. Don't forget the big stompy foot either.
Like you say the ideal unit size really varies depending on what unit you are talking about and how you want your army to function on the battlefield. I generally opt for smaller than internet wisdom units would suggest
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Post by mottdon on Apr 8, 2017 13:35:53 GMT
Who are you taking against his Dwarves?
I find magic to be the most effective at reducing big deathstars. Hit them, hit them, hit them with magic, all the while maneuvering your forces to surround. Once you have them somewhat depleted and surrounded, pounce all at once. If you can't beat them to a man, then go for combat res.
Dwarfs are slow and have very low initiative. Take out any artillery quickly, then you'll force him into a tight spot where he has to come get you.
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Post by Anaris on Apr 8, 2017 13:44:36 GMT
Who are you taking against his Dwarves? I find magic to be the most effective at reducing big deathstars. Hit them, hit them, hit them with magic, all the while maneuvering your forces to surround. Once you have them somewhat depleted and surrounded, pounce all at once. If you can't beat them to a man, then go for combat res. Dwarfs are slow and have very low initiative. Take out any artillery quickly, then you'll force him into a tight spot where he has to come get you. Warriors of Chaos I'm playing. He out numbers me. He has like 3 units of 40 models in horde, several artillery, a gyro copier, 2 shooting units of 20, then a unit of 20-30 warriors. He's spread all out. When my unit of 24 warriors get in, his horde rule gives him so many attacks back. Dude I even had a Lord with flame breath get 5 hits 3 kills. And he still won that combat and I charged. He won by 2. Then his other unit charged my flank. But that's because I had my hounds charge that unit to get out the way for my knights to charge another unit. The hounds died so he got to reform, my knights failed their charge lmao.
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Post by mottdon on Apr 8, 2017 13:52:20 GMT
You should be running a Deamon Prince and two Chimeras. Add in some Fast Cav for pressure and then take your block of Warriors with some chariots on either side to add in additional punch when they get stuck in. Focus on 1 flank and hit that unit hard. I have had a hard time fighting WoC opponents when they take a unit of Three Jugg Knights with a BSB on Jugg (4 total). They keep them in their backfield as support while the DP and Chimeras do their business and their Warriors move up. Giants can be nasty against Dwarves as well.
Dwarfs are a tough nut to crack, but if you take out those guns, then he'll be in a tight spot.
Do you remember what units he takes? That can make all the difference.
Something else: If he is spread out all across the board, load up your forces on 1 side and that will virtually take 1 unit out of the fight. If he has them guarding artillery, use your fliers to jump around his unit and take out the guns. They can quickly move around the board, so they will be able to get back to the main combat. Fast Cav are good for this as well, but you'll probably want them to redirect him from flanking your main block.
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Post by dannytee on Apr 8, 2017 19:29:26 GMT
So to your initial question of what an ideal unit size is I really do believe there is no such thing. 8th edition does a great job of balancing the rewards and costs of big, medium and small units. It really does depend on army and even then different play styles make different unit sizes possible. There are a ton of effective many small unit builds out there (WoC can do this well and so can DE, HE, lizards and others as well). Hordes are powerful in combat but also have the down side of being all of your eggs in one basket. This is really what the mega spells such as dwellers below, purple sun, pit of shade, etc. are made to do (ie make hordes into less then 20 models in a single casting). And this is also why 6 dice IF for these spells is worth while even if there is some risk. Who are you taking against his Dwarves? I find magic to be the most effective at reducing big deathstars. Hit them, hit them, hit them with magic, all the while maneuvering your forces to surround. Once you have them somewhat depleted and surrounded, pounce all at once. If you can't beat them to a man, then go for combat res. Dwarfs are slow and have very low initiative. Take out any artillery quickly, then you'll force him into a tight spot where he has to come get you. I agree with this. As a dwarf player myself I also usually take hordes of 40 dwarves. They hit super hard in combat at full strength. So your play is really to make sure that you don't engage them while they are at full strength. A single purple sun spell can decimate a dwarf horde as all the rank and file are I2. And these same initiative test or die spells are very effective against war machines as warmachines auto fail I tests.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Apr 8, 2017 19:46:37 GMT
dannytee does indeed play with multiple large units of 40+ dwarfs. No shortcut: 40 short guys with S5 or S6 is a powerful unit. Best bet is to time it with a few (2 or 3) of you units charging his big dwarf block all at once. Ideally, get a monster with thunderstomp in on the action. Ideally, get a one of your units with a flank or rear charge. Bait the dwarfs to charge you. Stay 13.5 inches away (they need a 10 on 2D6 to reach you). If they don't take the bait, the 3-units-charge-all-at-once-plan just might work. Dwarfs are T4, so something with S6 is the best to hurt them with, needing 2+'s to wound. S6 will also negate armor on most dwarf infantry. Also, kill them before they can counter-strike... double handed weapons go after everything in strike order. Some basic Khorne Warriors with halberds should do the trick nicely. If you have them, the new Khorne 40x40 infantry are also quite good versus stunties. Consider hex spells (-1 T is especially good). Multiple smaller casters with a few hexes has worked well for me.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Apr 8, 2017 19:50:07 GMT
Well when someone rolls with big deathstar units.... I don't think Boldo goes with "deathstar" builds. He just recognizes the value in a basic dwarf soldier, and he's right. T4? LD9? And he can give them big axes to hit with S5 or S6? All for 10 to 14 points/ea? It is value town. They're good, hard blocks of infantry.... Just outmaneuver them. Take your time, pick your battles. Avoid the Hammerers. Chaos Warriors & Friends can beat basic dwarf infantry. Just bring quality units and get 2-on-1 or 3-on-1 charges.
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Post by Anaris on Apr 8, 2017 20:55:51 GMT
So to your initial question of what an ideal unit size is I really do believe there is no such thing. 8th edition does a great job of balancing the rewards and costs of big, medium and small units. It really does depend on army and even then different play styles make different unit sizes possible. There are a ton of effective many small unit builds out there (WoC can do this well and so can DE, HE, lizards and others as well). Hordes are powerful in combat but also have the down side of being all of your eggs in one basket. This is really what the mega spells such as dwellers below, purple sun, pit of shade, etc. are made to do (ie make hordes into less then 20 models in a single casting). As a dwarf player myself I also usually take hordes of 40 dwarves. They hit super hard in combat at full strength. So your play is really to make sure that you don't engage them while they are at full strength. A single purple sun spell can decimate a dwarf horde as all the rank and file are I2. And these same initiative test or die spells are very effective against war machines as warmachines auto fail I tests. Well see, I don't like building lists specifically for who I am playing against. I like to build "take all comers lists" plus generally I like to build for fun, not what is going to wreck someone (I did against the Skaven dude cause I got tabled basically by his turn 2 so yeah, who wouldn't want revenge lol) Well when someone rolls with big deathstar units.... I don't think Boldo goes with "deathstar" builds. He just recognizes the value in a basic dwarf soldier, and he's right. T4? LD9? And he can give them big axes to hit with S5 or S6? All for 10 to 14 points/ea? It is value town. They're good, hard blocks of infantry.... Just outmaneuver them. Take your time, pick your battles. Avoid the Hammerers. Chaos Warriors & Friends can beat basic dwarf infantry. Just bring quality units and get 2-on-1 or 3-on-1 charges. Yes I agree, also a worthy note is Boldo is the only dwarf player to win a slayer sword with dwarfs. So yeah that's a thing. Boldo does some shit I don't understand or can figure out, but when he rolls and I see how it's applied it makes sense. Like he does some mathhammer and shit lol. He is a very honest and accurate player. He knows very small nuances with the rules. Also when you are talking "quality" units. That's what he tells me is I need an effective unit. Like to bring a bigger block. I'm like it's already 500 points for 24 nurgleites lol.
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Post by vulcan on Apr 8, 2017 21:54:50 GMT
Nice signature there, Anaris. 8E combat rules reward big units, the bigger the better. Steadfast, horde formation, and supporting attacks makes for a harder unit. Of course that huge frontage of a horde also allows multiple units to get into combat with it - it's not hard to get two, three, or even four charges into a single horde. On the down side, 8E magic rules punish big units just as harshly. I-test, S-test to avoid (or even just 1 chance in 3) for every single model in a unit to get ganked with no save hits harder the bigger the unit is. Fortunately, Dwarves lack access to those 'save or suck' spells. Big blocks are somewhat harder to maneuver, yes, but your movement allowance has a bigger impact than the size of the unit. Try bringing some of WoC's excellent chariots or monsters along and have them combo-charge alongside your combat block.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Apr 8, 2017 22:55:52 GMT
How about a unit of 12 trolls? Of course he would see that coming and conveniently have a flaming banner where it's needed.
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Post by Anaris on Apr 8, 2017 23:11:43 GMT
How about a unit of 12 trolls? Of course he would see that coming and conveniently have a flaming banner where it's needed. As it was he had 2 shooting units cause flame, I only had Festus for regen. It was funny because he shot my unit the first time with flaming shots, had like 9 hits and 5 wounds -2 to my save. I passed all 5 armor saves and still had my regen it was glamorous lol But Yeah he hates chimera and I usually always take at least 1 sometimes 2, this time none.
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Post by mottdon on Apr 9, 2017 1:20:49 GMT
Yeah, Dwarfs have all kinds of access to flaming attacks. They can put it on just about everything. The Troll horde might have trouble. I totally agree with combining charges with chariots. That would be effective.
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Post by Anaris on Apr 9, 2017 1:52:28 GMT
Yeah, Dwarfs have all kinds of access to flaming attacks. They can put it on just about everything. The Troll horde might have trouble. I totally agree with combining charges with chariots. That would be effective. I thought so, but I was worried about his possible cannons and multi wound attacks. So I brought mostly single wound models. Only multi wound I had was a unit of 6 blood crushers
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Post by Anaris on Apr 9, 2017 1:53:38 GMT
That's me on the right It was 2750 points, Boldo has a cannon far left out of my picture shot
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