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Post by wilsonthenarc on Apr 11, 2017 15:45:13 GMT
TheREALricksalamone, thanks for bringing us back to the OP. We were out in the middle of the ocean. Ideal unit size for Tomb Kings skeleton spearmen: 35 to 50, always 5 wide Ideal unit size for Necropolis Knights: 4
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2017 18:42:39 GMT
Bestigors: 50 (these guys take an obscene amount of casualties; they're a high priority target and so need the bodies) HORDE FORMATION Gors: 70 (with no armor they take a lot of casualties, but with hatred and additional hand weapon they also dish out a lot of casualties; I find them typically good for two mainstream combats before they're depleted and can't fight) HORDE FORMATION ungor raiders: 5 (chaff with short bows; moral victory if they ACTUALLY manage to wound, let alone kill something with those bows) chaos hounds: 5 (chaff/redirectors/warmachine hunters) razorgors: 1 (THE BEST warmachine hunters/chaff clearers/character snipers right here. T5 with 3W and 4A and fear is amazing) units of 2 ranked 1x2 can put 7A on a mage/bsb ranked up in a bunker unit! minotaurs: 6 (no champ; they make a good bus for characters) this unit STILL breaks over 300 points though ungors: 50 (these guys protect a flank while the gors and bestigors do their work) 5 wide w/ hand weapon and shield for maximum durability
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Post by frozenfood on Apr 11, 2017 19:39:24 GMT
70 gor? Not even my skavenslaves number more that 60. Sounds cool
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Post by Anaris on Apr 11, 2017 19:44:46 GMT
70 gor? Not even my skavenslaves number more that 60. Sounds cool All three of the Skaven players I ever played minimum 100 Skaven slaves. MINIMUM. Bestigors: 50 (these guys take an obscene amount of casualties; they're a high priority target and so need the bodies) HORDE FORMATION Gors: 70 (with no armor they take a lot of casualties, but with hatred and additional hand weapon they also dish out a lot of casualties; I find them typically good for two mainstream combats before they're depleted and can't fight) HORDE FORMATION ungor raiders: 5 (chaff with short bows; moral victory if they ACTUALLY manage to wound, let alone kill something with those bows) chaos hounds: 5 (chaff/redirectors/warmachine hunters) razorgors: 1 (THE BEST warmachine hunters/chaff clearers/character snipers right here. T5 with 3W and 4A and fear is amazing) units of 2 ranked 1x2 can put 7A on a mage/bsb ranked up in a bunker unit! minotaurs: 6 (no champ; they make a good bus for characters) this unit STILL breaks over 300 points though ungors: 50 (these guys protect a flank while the gors and bestigors do their work) 5 wide w/ hand weapon and shield for maximum durability You know for sure what you're talking about.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2017 20:54:15 GMT
yeah I (used to) routinely run up against units larger than that (70). Once (only once) my regular opponent tried a unit of 200 slaves but the footprint was just too large for him. ~120 is what I seem to face. it sticks around a LONG time and with spears can surprise with the damage. When the unit is that size then spears actually become an attractive choice. And the unit is only ~300 points so...why not? I would run MSU but I think the beast banner makes gors perfect and so I maximize that ONE unit that gets the banner. It typically needs to last through combat with two units as I don't have the number of units to compete on a one-for-one basis. Also bear in mind all my games are at least 3000 points so unit sizes would shrink as the games get smaller. it's a big flank but I bring a lot of chaff and use the chaff to redirect anyone that would want to take advantage of that superior position. I also have a unit of ungors that guard the flank as well. Their sole purpose is to die, but take as long as possible doing so while my gors and bestigors mop up the army. I eventually want to add chariots to my list; I don't have any at all (tried scratch building a razorgor one, wasn't pleased with the outcome so I scrapped the project. I have 4 tuskgor heads and 2 full chariot crews (old metal) I'm planning to use the Orc & Goblin chariot as the base; I just haven't done it yet. When that happens and my gors and bestigors can get decent support then I'll bring their unit sizes down to cover the costs of the chariots. (maybe not the bestigors; they're a dangerous target, my opponents know that and so they're picked on a lot)
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Post by grandmasterwang on Apr 12, 2017 2:02:59 GMT
Bestigors: 50 (these guys take an obscene amount of casualties; they're a high priority target and so need the bodies) HORDE FORMATION Gors: 70 (with no armor they take a lot of casualties, but with hatred and additional hand weapon they also dish out a lot of casualties; I find them typically good for two mainstream combats before they're depleted and can't fight) HORDE FORMATION ungor raiders: 5 (chaff with short bows; moral victory if they ACTUALLY manage to wound, let alone kill something with those bows) chaos hounds: 5 (chaff/redirectors/warmachine hunters) razorgors: 1 (THE BEST warmachine hunters/chaff clearers/character snipers right here. T5 with 3W and 4A and fear is amazing) units of 2 ranked 1x2 can put 7A on a mage/bsb ranked up in a bunker unit! minotaurs: 6 (no champ; they make a good bus for characters) this unit STILL breaks over 300 points though ungors: 50 (these guys protect a flank while the gors and bestigors do their work) 5 wide w/ hand weapon and shield for maximum durability Great post......Damn i so wish i had the numbers of painted miniatures to field Beastmen units of that size. I certainly agree with you on 5 for raiders and hounds though. Sticking with the Beastmen theme I'd like to add 5 for the ideal number of Centigor...... it's the minimum number you can field to get these great looking but not super effective minis on the table. For Ogres I think the ideal unit of Mournfang cavalry is just a small unit of 2. They still pack a huge punch and have a small footprint. If you wanted to field a larger unit then 4 (wide) with the special Ogre banner which comes with a bonus breath Weapon is the way to go. This takes advantage of the Eighth Monstrous cavalry rules with second rank mounts not being able to attack fully. For Tomb Kings.... Sepulchral Stalkers.. minimum size of 3 is the way to go. Smallest possible footprint for emerging with Beneath the Sands to avoid placing difficulties, less points to lose if they are engaged in combat by anything substantial and a potential 30 shots should be enough to kill whatever they are aimed at. Rather than making the unit bigger if you want to field more take a second unit of 3, more effective and less risky. Chaos Dwarf Blunderbuss.... over 30 as you need 20+ for the rerolls to wound and opponents will target them to get them below this threshold before they are in shooting range. They also are almost as durable as dwarf Ironbreakers so form a decent combat block if engaged.. A unit of 30 Blunderbuss troops is enough to complete your 25% core obligation in an 8th Edition Chaos Dwarf list.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2017 16:51:01 GMT
Chaos Warriors: hw/shield - 30 (6x5 or 5x6) (these guys are an anvil, they need to hold someone in place so you can flank them. they don't kill anyone fast enough to bother trying to get more attacks out of them) halberd - 21-28 (7x3 or 7x4) (these guys kill whatever they're pointed at. the best weapon to give a unit of chaos warriors) 2hw - 21-28 (7x3 or 7x4) (pure fun. not as good as halberds but against t3 opponents why not bring them along? plus they're the coolest looking warriors) Marauders: great weapons - 50 (10x5) (they're overpriced in 8th, but this block can still get a lot of work done) hw/shield - 40 (5x8) (see warriors with hw/shield, except squishier; but also not as many points) knights - 7 (I like being able to squeeze the maximum number of attacks out of these guys against a 5-wide frontage, hence 7; ensorcelled weapons everytime for me) skullcrushers - 4-8 (4x1 or 4x2) (skullcrushers are mean there's just no getting around it. they're consistently my mvp's, often grinding through 10-20x their number over the course of a game) dragon ogres - 4-8 (4x1 or 4x2) (with 4W each they're surprisingly durable, I find that having the 8 bodies helps keep the unit alive as they tend to take a lot of casualties. mine have GW and go after doomwheels, hellpits, frosthearts, chariots, dragons, and the like) trolls - 6 or 18 (3x2 or 6x3) (my line of thinking is either a smallish unit of around 6 as a support unit on the flank or a big horde of them anchoring the center of your line. Throgg is almost mandatory here as my general likes to either ride with the cavalry or fly around on a disc and can't afford to babysit the trolls. They start off combat against most units at -2 cause 2 ranks and no banner. I've lost combat a couple times with these guys because of bad rolling, but they have the number of attacks needed to grind through anything they need to) marauder horsemen - 5 (I like fast cavalry a lot, and these guys fill the chaff/redirect/flee role nicely) grandmasterwang my beastmen aren't all painted. that probably means I shouldn't play with them but I do enjoy them immensely. it's weird; I like painting my WoC more (it's hard to paint anything else, I start other projects but end up missing my warriors) but I like playing with the beastmen more.
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Post by Anaris on Apr 12, 2017 16:58:54 GMT
Alright, how would you guys run white lions from high elves?
Like minimum to max unit size.
Also sword masters?
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Post by Anaris on Apr 12, 2017 17:00:33 GMT
Chaos Warriors: hw/shield - 30 (6x5 or 5x6) (these guys are an anvil, they need to hold someone in place so you can flank them. they don't kill anyone fast enough to bother trying to get more attacks out of them) halberd - 21-28 (7x3 or 7x4) (these guys kill whatever they're pointed at. the best weapon to give a unit of chaos warriors) 2hw - 21-28 (7x3 or 7x4) (pure fun. not as good as halberds but against t3 opponents why not bring them along? plus they're the coolest looking warriors) Marauders: great weapons - 50 (10x5) (they're overpriced in 8th, but this block can still get a lot of work done) hw/shield - 40 (5x8) (see warriors with hw/shield, except squishier; but also not as many points) knights - 7 (I like being able to squeeze the maximum number of attacks out of these guys against a 5-wide frontage, hence 7; ensorcelled weapons everytime for me) skullcrushers - 4-8 (4x1 or 4x2) (skullcrushers are mean there's just no getting around it. they're consistently my mvp's, often grinding through 10-20x their number over the course of a game) dragon ogres - 4-8 (4x1 or 4x2) (with 4W each they're surprisingly durable, I find that having the 8 bodies helps keep the unit alive as they tend to take a lot of casualties. mine have GW and go after doomwheels, hellpits, frosthearts, chariots, dragons, and the like) trolls - 6 or 18 (3x2 or 6x3) (my line of thinking is either a smallish unit of around 6 as a support unit on the flank or a big horde of them anchoring the center of your line. Throgg is almost mandatory here as my general likes to either ride with the cavalry or fly around on a disc and can't afford to babysit the trolls. They start off combat against most units at -2 cause 2 ranks and no banner. I've lost combat a couple times with these guys because of bad rolling, but they have the number of attacks needed to grind through anything they need to) marauder horsemen - 5 (I like fast cavalry a lot, and these guys fill the chaff/redirect/flee role nicely) grandmasterwang my beastmen aren't all painted. that probably means I shouldn't play with them but I do enjoy them immensely. it's weird; I like painting my WoC more (it's hard to paint anything else, I start other projects but end up missing my warriors) but I like playing with t2he beastmen more. Ok you're talking about facing frontage 5 units, what would you do if they are horde? Also the 7 wide knights only maximise against 25mm bases, not 20mm high elf, Skaven, or goblins as an example.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2017 17:14:27 GMT
I don't list tailor and so it's more of an all-comers approach with the 7 knights. Also; there are cavalry and other 25mm base units you could come up against in a lot of those lists that could be only 5 wide. if they're horde then I try to put the knights in the flank and anchor them with an anvil unit of warriors or my own horde of marauders As far as white lions or swordmasters: If you're committed to the horde I would probably run white lions 40-50 in horde. with 1A each you're not "wasting" any attacks from the back row. I think white lions excel in this formation. Otherwise I'd say 7-wide and how ever deep you can afford points wise. sword masters: my buddy ran a horde of these guys and they minced everything I hated them. They're such a brutal unit. Personally I'd run them MSU in blocks of 14-21 seven wide. This allows you to maximise attacks against 5-wide units. But I'd be looking to either hit flanks of larger units or multicharge into larger blocks.
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Post by Anaris on Apr 12, 2017 17:18:18 GMT
What's msu?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2017 17:24:19 GMT
multiple small units
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Post by grandmasterwang on Apr 12, 2017 17:27:10 GMT
I remember a guy at the local GW who ran Swordmasters in mini units as a form of super elite chaaf. 2 units of 7 and one of 5 if I recall. He actually did really well with them and used them to back up his main Phoenix guard unit. With Initiative 6 they would be able to unleash 14 strength 5 attacks on most units before counter attacks if left unchecked and small arms fire directed at the Swordmasters left his eagles and chariots to do their thing.
I had a game vs a mate where i wanted to annoy him (for giggles, I'm not a prick) and ran 3 Lionpeedos at him (inspired by my dwarf Lordpeedo).
Lionpeedos were small single file White Lion units which given their stubborn if they are engaged head on can be a pain in the A to remove...more trouble than they are worth at least. It's an amusing​ trick to pull once in a while on a mate but not recommended on a random.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2017 17:32:15 GMT
nowadays I think it would be 21 attacks from that small unit. 22 if you include a champion (I wouldn't because points). Swordmasters scare me; they're one of the few units that will beat chaos warriors in close combat. that smaller base allows you to squeeze more attacks against an equal frontage of warriors.
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Post by Anaris on Apr 12, 2017 17:33:09 GMT
I remember a guy at the local GW who ran Swordmasters in mini units as a form of super elite chaaf. 2 units of 7 and one of 5 if I recall. He actually did really well with them and used them to back up his main Phoenix guard unit. With Initiative 6 they would be able to unleash 14 strength 5 attacks on most units before counter attacks if left unchecked and small arms fire directed at the Swordmasters left his eagles and chariots to do their thing. I had a game vs a mate where i wanted to annoy him (for giggles, I'm not a prick) and ran 3 Lionpeedos at him (inspired by my dwarf Lordpeedo). Lionpeedo? Yeah I heard sword masters in 7 is good with multiple units of them. Well I've only been playing my warriors of chaos lately and supposedly they are the "best" army. But I'm losing. Out of past 7 games with them I won 1 time. 3 out of 6 losses I got demolished and trounced. The other 3 loses were great close games but I'd still be tabled at the end.
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