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Post by knoffles on May 17, 2017 22:16:20 GMT
In a couple of weeks i'm due to play someone at the club who has never played Dwarves in 8th (he has played 8th for about a year and previously played back in 3/4th ed.).
As such I've said i'll prepare 3 styles (or extremes) of lists that a dwarf player might bring to the table, namely: Full gunline, combined arms and strollaz and give him the choice of which he wants to try out (i'll forward the list after he selects the style).
I normally field a combined arms list, so i'm mainly after feedback on the gunline/strollaz lists (i'll take it on the combined list too but pretty comfortable on that one). He is a competitive player so although I want to give him the full experience I want to also give him a challenge.
I know he will be playing WoC but I would prefer not to tailor lists. Most of the loadouts and rune combos are what I would normally take when fielding the respective units/characters (though runesmith weapon runes can vary to use up spare points and give an anti-ethereal ability)
List one - Gunline (2498pts)
This has been designed to take the concept to the extreme. Everything has ranged weapons with the exception of the BSB and Runesmith who instead will be there to shut down the magic phase.
The Runesmith and Grimm will be in the Irondrakes. Grimm will use his special rule to increase the Thunderers range initially and then the irondrakes to hit roll.
The Master Engineer will be on the naked organ gun (if I field 2 organ's, one is always unruned in case I come across the banner of the world dragon).
Heroes - 531pts
General – Runesmith - Gromril Armour + Shield + Ro Striking + Ro Burning + Ro Stone + 2*Ro Spellbreaking – 133pts
Thane BSB – Gromril Armour + Shield + MRo Valaya – 158pts
Master Engineer – Gromril Armour + brace of pistols + Ro Stone – 85pts
Grimm Burloksson – 165pts
Core – 852pts
Thunderers (20) + FC + HA + Shields + brace of pistols – 290pts
Quarrellers (38) + FC + HA + GW – 562pts
Special – 480pts
Cannon – Ro Forging + Ro Burning – 150pts
Grudge Thrower – Ro Penetrating + Ro Accuracy + Ro Forging – 170pts
Gyrocoptor – 80pts
Gyrocoptor – 80pts
Rare – 625pts
Organ gun – 120pts
Organ gun – Ro Forging + Ro Accuracy - 170pts
Irondrakes (18) + FC + Ro Slowness + brace of drake pistols – 335pts
List Two - Strollaz (2497pts)
Again this is a extreme list but built around the vanguard theme.
The Runesmith general will be in with the Hammerers for obvious reasons. The other one will be with the Longbeards to lend them AP. The Thane will be in the Warriors to give them Vanguard. Writing this I have suddenly realised that I probably require a few small units of 5 rangers to protect the ability of units to vanguard but I love the idea of placing a unit of 40 rangers in someone's face (I do own 50 xbow dwarves so could fit some additional rangers in).
Heroes – 409pts
General – Runesmith - Gromril Armour + Shield + Ro Striking + Ro Stone + Ro Spellbreaking – 103pts
Runesmith - Gromril Armour + Shield + Ro Speed + Ro Stone + 2*Ro Spellbreaking – 118pts
Thane BSB – Gromril Armour + Shield + MRo Grungni + Strollaz’s Rune – 188pts
Core – 712pts
Longbeards (29) – FC + HA + Shield + Strollaz’s Rune – 442pts
Dwarf Warriors (24) – FC + HA + GW – 270pts
Special – 796pts
Hammerers (24) - HA + GW + Musician + Standard + Ro Sanctuary + Strollaz’s Rune – 406pts
Miners (20) – FC + HA + GW + Steamdrill – 230pts
Gyrocoptor – 80pts
Gyrocoptor – 80pts
Rare - 580pts
Rangers (40) - HA + GW + Xbow + throwing axes + Musician + Standard – 580pts
List Three - Combined Arms (2496pts)
I wouldn't always include a lord choice, preferring to take an additional runesmith and organ gun but I though it would be good for Luke to experience the tanky lord. He would be placed in the longbeards to give them a hard hitter. The Runesmith would go in the Irondrakes (you've probably guessed that they are my favourite dwarf unit and always come with stock Runesmith in my armies).
The Xbows would be placed either side of the Hammerers (probably) to take advantage of the stubborn banner.
Lords – 276pts
Dwarf Lord – Gromril Armour + GW + Shieldbearers + Ro Fortitude + 2*Ro Iron + Ro Furnace – 276pts
Heroes – 286pts
Thane BSB – Gromril Armour + Shield + MRo Valaya – 158pts
Runesmith - Gromril Armour + Shield + Ro Fire + Ro Speed + Ro Stone + 2*Ro Spellbreaking – 128pts
Core – 635pts
Longbeards (25) – FC + HA + shield – 355pts
Quarrellers (10) – Standard + HA + GW + Xbow – 130pts
Quarrellers (10) – Standard + HA + GW + Xbow – 130pts
Special – 779pts
Hammerers (26) – FC + HA + GW + MRo Groth One Eye – 469pts
Cannon – Ro Forging + Ro Burning – 150pts
Gyrocoptor – 80pts
Gyrocoptor – 80pts
Rare – 520pts
Organ gun – Ro Forging + Ro Accuracy - 170pts
Irondrakes (19) + FC + Ro Slowness + brace of drake pistols – 350pts
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 23:56:08 GMT
I don't have a lot of experience fighting or playing as Dwarfs, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
I realize that runed up warmachines are very effective, but they seem REALLY expensive. Would it be better to try and free up some points by knocking off a rune or two from what you have to make room for another warmachine?
Personally I've never subscribed to grudge throwers/stone throwers. Unless it's a hellcannon or a trebuchet (S5 template) then I've always felt that you'd be better served by taking something else. Although they do tend to wreck havoc on my monsters with that s9 central hole hit so maybe it could be repurposed for monster hunting when the infantry is too tough; I suppose this is where the organ guns come in? (wrecking heavy infantry) I know a rune of penetrating helps here but is it enough?
Do longbeards accomplish something that more warriors with GWs wont? I remember you saying in your battle reports on your blog that you often wish that the longbeards were something else are you going to regret bringing them? (I love them personally, scibor makes some of the best looking dwarves I've seen and their longbeards are no exception)
I would argue that you may want to find points for another gyro in your shooty list. As anti-chaff/chaff of your own they're going to be very important. You'll deploy them in ways to give the finger to scouts and use them to keep your warmachines safe. They can also be sacrificed to redirect the enemy and buy your units another turn to shoot. My lists (all theory, again, they're next after skaven and I look forward to trying this out) at 3000 feature 6 gyros. I use the steam gun to whittle down hordes and then sacrifice them to buy the cannons/organ guns time to keep shooting. My 2000 point list will most likely have 2, hopefully 3 gyros in it. I often feel that these guys are overlooked and I cannot stress how much I love them.
Your love of the Irondrakes is making me seriously consider a unit for myself. Up until now I wasn't planning to make that purchase but now I just might...
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Post by knoffles on May 18, 2017 8:19:17 GMT
Cheers for the thoughts, I want going to write on ur list but last time I faced the rats was in 4th ed. so I'm somewhat out of touch..
Long beards - I was having the same thoughts. I should have said it the main it comes down to models available.
In the strollaz list. I have 50 GW models (hammerers/LB) and 35 shield variety. I'm happy to proxy the gw long beards as Warriors but not the shield Warriors as GW warriors.
I think I will change them out in the combined arms list though. I think that I had it in my head that my opponent might think on paper the LB's look the weakest unit and underestimate the impact of the Lord when placed in the unit (he is too easy to avoid otherwise).
Gyros - I only own 2. I really need to pick up another!
Grudgethrower - I completely agree with your comments and came to the same conclusions and as such have never used it in 8th (or painted it). But as I've not used one (and others swear by them), I thought I'd give it a go (+ my only other war machine is a goblin hewer which I normally proxies as an organ gun when going slayer themed). Although he's a competitive player it's only a friendly game so an ideal time to try it out (you now have me thinking of a 4th list, all melee including slayer king and slayer unit so he can experience them too)
Runes - yep they are expensive, no question about it. Although I rarely load up on weapon or armour runes (ignore the lord he is a special case) and even with banners I'll normally take perhaps 2 depending on the build, I have found that they make warmachines deadly and so much more reliable. From experience I wouldn't run an organ gun without them (unless it had an engineer though he is more expensive than the 2 runes) as the +1 to hit and reroll are so essential in getting the most out of them and would probably drop it altogether without them.
Irondrakes - later I'll put up a post to really sell the virtues of this unit, why I think it's our go to anvil and why I go with the load outs I do.
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Post by Horace on May 18, 2017 9:32:50 GMT
If you are wanting to construct a list which is fun to play against I think the Strollaz list looks by far and away the most interesting to play. Playing against a gunline may be fun for an experienced player but he may not appreciate having his army obliterated before he gets to do anything. Although your gunline list is literally entirely guns so will melt if he reaches you  Your combined arms list is more along the lines of gunline lists I am accustomed too except for maybe a lack of an engineer. I think the Strollaz list is perhaps lacking a nice Organ gun. Do you need 2 Runesmiths? |
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Post by knoffles on May 18, 2017 12:36:46 GMT
Thanks for the comments. You are right that the gunline list would not fair well against most of his force (that's why I put in a horde of xbows to at least give one decent combat unit). I'm not entirely sure a gunline is ever fun to play against but your point is well taken so I'll remove this one from the table.
Don't worry I am normally very Dwarfy and the engineer is the third thing that would have been put in the combined list if I hadn't of included the lord (together with the second 'naked' organ gun and a second runesmith).
I do find it hard to contemplate fielding a Dwarf list, strollaz or not, without an organ gun (my last attempt had one in + irondrakes). Again with this list I was attempting to not include any ranged items.
I do now (after feedback) think that the two extremes are probably not the way to go, so back to the drawing board!
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Post by frozenfood on May 18, 2017 14:33:24 GMT
So...full close combat dwarf list?
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2017 16:28:59 GMT
The most fun I ever had in a game was playing against a full cc dwarf army. It was entirely unexpected and a nice refreshing change. I would bring some kind of range though even if it's just to clear away chaff.
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Post by knoffles on May 18, 2017 22:09:18 GMT
Ok, next bash at it.
Melee (ish) - 2499
No strollaz runes as this frees up a lot of points. Couple of 10 man xbows to shoot chaff and then act as road blocks if required. Using my Miners to proxy the normal GW warriors. The horde of hammerers can be lethal if it gets into combat and the irondrakes can act as the anvil (and short range artillery). Slayers are thrown in as they are about my only other melee dwarves (bar the 35 odd shieldbeards) and I've always loved the models and fluff.
The 2 Runesmiths with 'dispel' runes combined with the banner (so dispelling is on a +4) should help to effectively shut down the magic phase. It has 140 dwarves in the list (+2 Gyros), which is not a bad amount of bodies.
I did knock together a slightly alternative version that swopped out a Runesmith and merged the quarrellers into a single smaller unit to fit in an Organ Gun (what can I say, I couldn't help myself as it feels wrong not to have a warmachine...).
Runesmith (General) – Ro Striking + Ro Stone + Ro Spellbreaking + Ro Furnace – 108pts
Runesmith – Ro Speed + Ro Stone + Ro Spellbreaking – 98pts
Thane (BSB) – Ro Gromril + GW – 126pts
Dwarf Warriors (40) – FC + GW – 430pts
Quarrellers (10) – Standard + Shields – 140pts
Quarrellers (10) – Standard + Shields – 140pts
Slayers (25) – Standard + Musician – 320pts
Hammerers (38) – FC + MRo Valaya – 627pts
Gyrocoptor – 80pts
Gyrocoptor – 80pts
Irondrakes (19) – FC + Ro Slowness + BoP – 350pts
Combined Arms - 2496
Reworked version - core has the horde of GW warriors rather than the shieldbeards. I've taken out a cannon and added in a 2nd organ gun + master engineer.
Lord (General) on shieldbearers + Ro Fortitude + 2*Ro Iron + Ro Furnace + GW – 276pts
Runesmith – Ro Stone + Ro Spellbreaking – 93pts
Thane (BSB) – Ro Gromril + GW – 126pts
Master Engineer – Ro Stone + BoP – 85pts
Dwarf Warriors (38) – Standard + Musician + GW – 400pts
Quarrellers (10) – Standard + GW – 150pts
Quarrellers (10) – Standard + GW – 150pts
Hammerers (24) – FC + MRo Valaya – 431pts
Gyrocoptor – 80pts
Gyrocoptor – 80pts
Irondrakes (18) – FC + Ro Slowness + BoP – 335pts
Organ Gun – 120pts
Organ Gun + Ro Accuracy + Ro Forging – 170pts
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Post by grandmasterwang on May 19, 2017 0:19:48 GMT
I like the Strollaz list. I've never had an opponent not enjoy a game vs my Strollaz.
I think you'll have the most fun using the Strollaz first off. You can always adjust to a CA or gunline approach in a future game.
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Post by knoffles on May 19, 2017 7:13:43 GMT
Just want to say thanks for all the feedback. It has been much appreciated. You've all sold me and Strollaz it is. With a re-jig i'm going to bring this list.
Vanguard 2 - 2498pts
Most of it has vanguard with the exception of the Irondrakes (and Gyros) which will slowly make their way forward on one side of the line (if we get watch tower, they will be going in there if possible). The two hordes will likely be front and centre and the slayers will be on the other flank. Gyro's will do what they do best and run around being a nuisance. The Lord again has been chosen just so he has experience of it (and fits the backstory fluff of my Dwarves and I love the model). I dropped the miners as needed to use them to proxy most of the GW Longbeards. I did toy with dropping the Irondrakes and Slayers to fit in a horde of Rangers but sods law we would then roll watchtower and I preferred the flexibility of 2 units.
It may not be the most optimised list but I'll enjoy using everything in it and with my limited playing time, that's the main point of my gaming now.
Lord – Shieldbearers + GW + Ro Fortitude + 2*Ro Iron – 271pts
Thane (BSB) – GW + Ro Gromril – 126pts
Runesmith – Shield + Ro Spellbreaking – 88pts
Longbeards (40) + FC + GW + Strollaz Rune – 625pts
Hammerers (37) + Standard + Musician + Strollaz Rune + Ro Courage – 593pts
Slayers (20) + Standard + Strollaz Rune + Ro Sanctury – 300pts
Irondrakes (18) + FC + BoP + Ro Slowness – 335pts
Gyrocoptors – 80pts
Gyrocoptors – 80pts
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Post by livewaaaaagh on May 22, 2017 12:03:22 GMT
From the OP, I liked army list #3 the most as i'm a fan of combat blocks for the later rounds. List #1 had thudnerers & quarrelers & irondrakes combat blocks. None made to for close combat. The 2nd had Warriors, which unless they go GW, I've never been a fan of. I like #3.
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Post by knoffles on May 27, 2017 19:56:01 GMT
So, I finally decided on a list and have sent it over and of course it's different to the others as I can never stop tinkering and love list building... (excuse the format but on my phone). I've only listed additional items on characters/units
Lord - shieldbearers, gw, ro fortitude, 2*ro iron - 271pts
Thane - bsb, mro gromril, gw - 126pts
Runesmith - shield, Ro stone, ro spellbreaking - 93pts
Runesmith - shield, Ro stone, ro spellbreaking, Ro furnace - 98pts
Master engineer - 70pts
Quarrellers (14) - GW, standard - 206pts
Warriors (39) - gw, FC - 420pts
Hammerers (36) - musician, standard, MRo valaya - 589pts
Irondrakes (17) - fc, brace of drake pistols, ro slowness - 320pts
Organ gun - Ro accuracy - 145pts
Gyrocoptor - 80pts
Gyrocoptor - 80pts
After he came back to me, my thoughts were to include a bit of everything but to go warmachines light. The one machine I have will hit on 2+ at short range and 3+ at long (if there is no other mods) so should be quite consistent. 2 GW hordes should hold their own in combat (and let's be honest with an initiative of 2, ASL doesn't really make any difference. The runesmiths and banner should help reduce the effectiveness of the nme magic (one will be in the irondrakes and the other in the Warriors to help combat). I am a little concerned about the lack of cannon (and having just one WM), I feel naked without it. I've also never taken as many characters in a Dwarf list. It feels wrong!
Although I don't consider this a filthy list, it should contain elements that will concern him and as long as I don't cock things up, be reasonably competitive. I should be getting his list tomorrow so will post it here too.
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Post by knoffles on May 28, 2017 7:02:01 GMT
So I received Luke's list and it was as follows:
Characters
Daemon Prince of Nurgle (General) - Level 4 lore of Nurgle, Daemonic Flight, Chaos armour, Sword of striking, charmed shield, Dragonbane gem, chaos familiar, scaled skin, soulfeeder - 525pts
Hero (BSB) - Disc of Tzeentch, MoT, Halberd, Enchanted shield, Talisman of Preservation, Third eye of Tzeentch - 241pts
Throgg - 195pts
Core
5 * Chaos warhounds - 30pts
5 * chaos warhounds - 30pts
21 * Chaos warriors - MoN, FC, Halberds, Banner of swiftness - 444pts
5 * Marauder Horsemen - MoS, Standard, champion, flails, javelins - 110pts
5 * Chaos trolls - AHW - 190pts
Special
Chaos Warshrine - MoT - 135pts
Chaos Warshrine - MoT - 135pts
Rare
Hellcannon - 210pts
3 * Skullcrushers - Standard, champion, ensorcelled weapons - 254pts
So his prince has saves of 1+, 5++ (2++ vs fire). Knows 5 spells, channels on a 5+. Flies. Hits everything in my army on a 2+ and is at -1 to hit (so everything in my army hits on a minimum of 5+) and he regains wounds on a 6 in combat. Frankly this is a beast, though is over a fifth of his points in one model so it has to be high on the list to kill. *sigh* where's my cannon.
He also included the unkillable bsb, with a 1+ (3+ in combat), 3++ save (rerolling ward rolls of 1), although I've seen them die many times as with only 2 wounds it only needs a couple of failed ward saves. I do think that the discs have to be the most under-priced mount in the game.
I've not faced Throgg before but he will obviously be going in the troll unit which makes that my number one target for the irondrakes. If they get some hits then the organ gun will be tasked with finishing them off (if it is still there, as it's primary target has to be the prince and Luke has to be thinking that the organ needs to be gotten rid of early).
He has 3 sets of chaff and the quarrellers will be aiming for them asap with priority going to the unit nearest the organ gun (with perhaps the mauraders first if possible of only due to it having a champion).
He did say that he wanted to try a warshrine theme. It is probably why he has so many champions.
Most of his troops don't worry me, I just worry that I don't have anything to deal with the hellcannon and/or his prince easily. Perhaps one of the gyro's can attack the cannon to at least prevent it firing at something more valuable for a turn (or perhaps 2 if i'm lucky!). The main spell I feel I need to be concerned with is curse of the leper as it reduces the toughness which then means most of his other spells will become more effective.
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Post by Horace on May 30, 2017 6:47:37 GMT
So I received Luke's list and it was as follows: CharactersDaemon Prince of Nurgle (General) - Level 4 lore of Nurgle, Daemonic Flight, Chaos armour, Sword of striking, charmed shield, Dragonbane gem, chaos familiar, scaled skin, soulfeeder - 525pts Hero (BSB) - Disc of Tzeentch, MoT, Halberd, Enchanted shield, Talisman of Preservation, Third eye of Tzeentch - 241pts Throgg - 195pts Core5 * Chaos warhounds - 30pts 5 * chaos warhounds - 30pts 21 * Chaos warriors - MoN, FC, Halberds, Banner of swiftness - 444pts 5 * Marauder Horsemen - MoS, Standard, champion, flails, javelins - 110pts 5 * Chaos trolls - AHW - 190pts Special
Chaos Warshrine - MoT - 135pts Chaos Warshrine - MoT - 135pts Rare
Hellcannon - 210pts 3 * Skullcrushers - Standard, champion, ensorcelled weapons - 254pts So his prince has saves of 1+, 5++ (2++ vs fire). Knows 5 spells, channels on a 5+. Flies. Hits everything in my army on a 2+ and is at -1 to hit (so everything in my army hits on a minimum of 5+) and he regains wounds on a 6 in combat. Frankly this is a beast, though is over a fifth of his points in one model so it has to be high on the list to kill. *sigh* where's my cannon. He also included the unkillable bsb, with a 1+ (3+ in combat), 3++ save (rerolling ward rolls of 1), although I've seen them die many times as with only 2 wounds it only needs a couple of failed ward saves. I do think that the discs have to be the most under-priced mount in the game. I've not faced Throgg before but he will obviously be going in the troll unit which makes that my number one target for the irondrakes. If they get some hits then the organ gun will be tasked with finishing them off (if it is still there, as it's primary target has to be the prince and Luke has to be thinking that the organ needs to be gotten rid of early). He has 3 sets of chaff and the quarrellers will be aiming for them asap with priority going to the unit nearest the organ gun (with perhaps the mauraders first if possible of only due to it having a champion). He did say that he wanted to try a warshrine theme. It is probably why he has so many champions. Most of his troops don't worry me, I just worry that I don't have anything to deal with the hellcannon and/or his prince easily. Perhaps one of the gyro's can attack the cannon to at least prevent it firing at something more valuable for a turn (or perhaps 2 if i'm lucky!). The main spell I feel I need to be concerned with is curse of the leper as it reduces the toughness which then means most of his other spells will become more effective. I feel your iron drakes are going to be key. You could almost do with the trollhammer or brimstone gun upgrades just for a touch more high str shooting |
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Post by Horace on May 30, 2017 6:49:36 GMT
His warriors won't like the gyro steam gun templates either though..
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