|
|
Post by gregwarhamsters on Jun 11, 2017 23:42:36 GMT
New army new rules - which opens up new questions regarding armies I thought I knew. I've recently purchased a Lizardman army, it has a selection of varied models and my intention is to add a little to it but not make it into some grand project, if anything I'm enjoying playing with limited units as it makes list selection far easier. I digress  I didn't know monsters didn't get swift stride as default, this made me look again at units I thought I knew what and how they worked. I've recently painted up some miners for my Dwarf army and I was looking at the blasting charges, they aren't dwarf crafted so suffer the -1 to hit when someone charges, but they are quick to fire so always get to stand and shoot. Now my question is this. Q: is the -1 to hit because of range taken into consideration? So BS 3 (4+) charging enemy (not dwarf crafted) -! to hit. Range 4" (so maximum) -1 to hit. Equals 6's needed. Which in turn had me thinking of the skink skirmishers I've recently purchased. Sure they are a useful unit in the army but a mate of mine uses the javelins and shield version, OK he has more of them and they're useful as they then have a 5+6++ save but I'm going for the double shot (-1) Move (-1) so I'm needing to be within 6" for the back rank otherwise I'm getting a further -1 so I'd need 7's so it there a half range for blow pipes? I obviously want the poison so I'm wanting a straight 6 at the very worst. In fact, for thrown weapons is there a half range? The rules (page 91 Column 2) doesn't say anythng which lends me to believe there isn't a rule so a thrown axe is 3"-6" for long range. Cheers Greg |
|
|
|
Post by Naitsabes on Jun 12, 2017 1:22:57 GMT
I think you have most of this right. Throwing weapons are not excused from that long range modifier as far as I am aware. Is anybody using blast charges? Seems cute but a bit pointless with a range of 4". Maybe it'll give the miners something to do on the turn they show up in just the right place?
Note that the range is measured on a per model basis so that dreaded 7 to-hit may only apply to some skinks while the rest happily poisons some poor overpriced monster.
|
|
|
|
Post by mottdon on Jun 12, 2017 13:37:25 GMT
This is a good topic. It's always rather confused me as well.
I'm probably wrong on this, but I've always played that if your unit is being charged, and that charge fails, if the charging unit stops within your shooting range, then you can stand and shoot. That is also subject to the long range rules. So if your range is 12" and the attacker stops 10" away, you can still perform a stand and shoot (given that you have that rule) but it will be -1 to hit and -1 for S&S.
Have I been playing this wrong? Everyone I play with mostly looks to me to decipher the rules.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 16:46:54 GMT
Here's my take mottdon:
Because your charge reaction is declared as soon as the charge is issued you work out stand and shoot right there on the spot (with all appropriate modifiers). You measure ranges, determine long range and all that BEFORE THE CHARGE DICE ARE ROLLED. You assume the range to be the maximum range of the shortest ranged weapon in the unit; regardless of where the unit ends up if they fail their charge. If they manage to find themselves outside of range the S&S still happens (due to timing of the charge reaction).
It's weird but I'm pretty sure that's the way it happens. Anyone feel free to contradict me if I'm doing it wrong.
and at gregwarhamsters:
All shooting weapons have a long range. So yes, your throwing weapons have a -1 when the target is further than 3" away. It's a reason why I stopped taking throwing axes on my marauder horsemen; bs3,moving,and long range had me hitting on 6's when I was outside of that 3" range and I hated it it wasn't worth the additional cost to me even if the axes were S4.
With regards to the skinks I believe that internet wisdom prefers javelins over blowpipes because of the reasons you point out. If you decide to take the multiple shot option you typically need 7's to hit which limits poison effectiveness (which is why you take skinks).
|
|
|
|
Post by knoffles on Jun 12, 2017 17:18:45 GMT
Here's my take mottdon: Because your charge reaction is declared as soon as the charge is issued you work out stand and shoot right there on the spot (with all appropriate modifiers). You measure ranges, determine long range and all that BEFORE THE CHARGE DICE ARE ROLLED. You assume the range to be the maximum range of the shortest ranged weapon in the unit; regardless of where the unit ends up if they fail their charge. If they manage to find themselves outside of range the S&S still happens (due to timing of the charge reaction). It's weird but I'm pretty sure that's the way it happens. Anyone feel free to contradict me if I'm doing it wrong. That is how I understand it to be, how our club plays it and the tournaments in and around London (what ones remain). It's why pistols are so good on the Dwarf thunderers champ', as it means the unit are firing at short range when they SaS. As is stated above spot on with the javelin vs blowpipe, it's why you normally only see the pipes on scouts (e.g. Chameleons) as with their higher bs they can still roll 6's and thus poison. +1 for excellent topic, I never even considered the issue with blasting charges and now won't ever take them. 😀 |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 17:46:26 GMT
New army new rules - which opens up new questions regarding armies I thought I knew. I didn't know monsters didn't get swift stride as default, This actually reminded me just now; was it 7th edition where if your M value was 7 or higher then you had swiftstride? This still gets me from time to time. Threw me for a loop when I realized my Carnosaur has to pay for swiftstride. |
|
|
|
Post by mottdon on Jun 12, 2017 19:57:38 GMT
Here's my take mottdon: Because your charge reaction is declared as soon as the charge is issued you work out stand and shoot right there on the spot (with all appropriate modifiers). You measure ranges, determine long range and all that BEFORE THE CHARGE DICE ARE ROLLED. You assume the range to be the maximum range of the shortest ranged weapon in the unit; regardless of where the unit ends up if they fail their charge. If they manage to find themselves outside of range the S&S still happens (due to timing of the charge reaction). It's weird but I'm pretty sure that's the way it happens. Anyone feel free to contradict me if I'm doing it wrong. Oooooookay!
The guy who basically taught me to play at my LGS, always said that I couldn't S&S if he started his charge outside of my range, didn't succeed and stopped outside my range still. I always wondered about that. I would ask him, "Aren't my guys shooting anyway? Just because you didn't make it, doesn't mean they don't shoot." He'd simply reply, "Nope. Their range means their ammo doesn't reach me." I thought he was full of it.
He was a WAAC player even though he didn't think so. I only beat him on 2 occasions and I've never heard more excuses from anyone I've ever played. He liked to run Dragon Prince busses and max their range out as much as possible and that's why this came up so often.
|
|
|
|
Post by vulcan on Jun 13, 2017 22:38:15 GMT
I believe it says in the book that even if the charge ends 'out of range', it's presumed that the chargers made it 'into range', got shot at, fell back, and reformed facing the target unit in the final position.
Here's one to bake your noodles. RAW, units that pivot more than 90 degrees to flee a charge cannot be caught and destroyed. (I've never even tried to play it this way in an actual game nor would I want to; it's beyond cheddar and rapidly approaching limburger.)
Here's how it works. When you declare a charge, the rules say you determine which facing of the target unit you must contact to legally complete the charge BEFORE charge reactions are declared.
The target declares a flee, pivots to face away, rolls and performs the appropriate flee move.
And if that pivot was more than 90 degrees, now the facing you're required to determine pre-flee is no longer accessible with a wheel of 90 degrees or less. And there's nothing in the rules that allows a charging unit to legally contact any OTHER facing of a fleeing unit to fulfill the 'catch and run down' condition.
|
|
|
|
Post by pendrake on Jun 15, 2017 11:47:38 GMT
I believe it says in the book that even if the charge ends 'out of range', it's presumed that the chargers made it 'into range', got shot at, fell back, and reformed facing the target unit in the final position. Here's one to bake your noodles. RAW, units that pivot more than 90 degrees to flee a charge cannot be caught and destroyed. (I've never even tried to play it this way in an actual game nor would I want to; it's beyond cheddar and rapidly approaching limburger.) Here's how it works. When you declare a charge, the rules say you determine which facing of the target unit you must contact to legally complete the charge BEFORE charge reactions are declared. The target declares a flee, pivots to face away, rolls and performs the appropriate flee move. And if that pivot was more than 90 degrees, now the facing you're required to determine pre-flee is no longer accessible with a wheel of 90 degrees or less. And there's nothing in the rules that allows a charging unit to legally contact any OTHER facing of a fleeing unit to fulfill the 'catch and run down' condition. O.o Gonna need a diagram to understand ^ that. |
|
|
|
Post by grandmasterwang on Jun 15, 2017 14:58:57 GMT
I think you have most of this right. Throwing weapons are not excused from that long range modifier as far as I am aware. Is anybody using blast charges? Seems cute but a bit pointless with a range of 4". Maybe it'll give the miners something to do on the turn they show up in just the right place? Note that the range is measured on a per model basis so that dreaded 7 to-hit may only apply to some skinks while the rest happily poisons some poor overpriced monster. I have used them before in my 'miner' list. I remember thinking they were ok.....but looking through this thread I think I ignored the long range penalty. I never played them vs any serious Warhammerers, only people who expect me to know all the rules so never got questioned on the Blast Charge rolls. |
|
|
|
Post by vulcan on Jun 15, 2017 18:02:53 GMT
O.o Gonna need a diagram to understand ^ that. Not sure how to put one in here, so I'll give you a concrete example in text. A big combat block and a chaff unit are facing each other squarely at 5" range, no other units in charge range. Big combat block wants to remove the chaff from it's way once and for all, so it declares a charge. AT THIS POINT, facings are compared. The big combat block is in the chaff's front arc. This means to legally make contact with the chaff, it must complete a legal charge into their front arc.(This is done to prevent units from making strange charges off in a different direction and then wheeling into a flank during the charge.) Now combat reactions are declared. The chaff unit decides to make a run for it and flees. They pivot 180 degrees, roll two dice (let's say they get a seven), and flee that distance. They are now 12" away from the big combat block. The big combat block (for lack of other targets) can't redirect. It has to complete the charge into the chaff. Except now... well, with only one 90-degree wheel there's no way it can even make contact with a front CORNER on the chaff unit, and legally it CANNOT make contact anywhere else. So... by RAW the charge fails before the dice are even rolled. We can move the units around at different angles and positions, but it quickly becomes clear. As soon as a fleeing unit pivots more than the 90 degrees allowed for a charging unit's one wheel, it becomes impossible for the charging unit to contact it's only legal target arc. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2017 20:25:19 GMT
I can't back this up with rules at the moment as they're at home but:
If the unit is fleeing then it doesn't matter the facing you were at; if you contact them they're dead. Pretty sure this is even spelled out in the declare charges section; "if a unit flees from a charge but the charging unit still has enough movement in their charge distance to contact them then they are removed". Something like that.
I agree with you however if the unit is not fleeing. If you're in the front arc of a unit when you declare a charge AND THEY HOLD if you're unable to actually make contact with the facing you were in when you declared the charge then it's a failed charge. You don't get to start off in a units front arc and then magically contact them in the flank. This applies even if their front arc is completely full already with your own troops fighting them. You either charge somewhere else or maneuver into their flank using remaining moves and position for a next turn charge.
I think the confusion may stem from the wording of the rules; when they flee you're no longer making a combat move but a pursuit move. OR think of it as a new charge against their rear arc in the final position they end up in, with the bonus of being able to wipe them completely out if you make contact with no dice rolling involved.
|
|
|
|
Post by dannytee on Jun 16, 2017 0:14:52 GMT
Here's my take mottdon: Because your charge reaction is declared as soon as the charge is issued you work out stand and shoot right there on the spot (with all appropriate modifiers). You measure ranges, determine long range and all that BEFORE THE CHARGE DICE ARE ROLLED. You assume the range to be the maximum range of the shortest ranged weapon in the unit; regardless of where the unit ends up if they fail their charge. If they manage to find themselves outside of range the S&S still happens (due to timing of the charge reaction). This is right on. Big red rule book page 17 "A Stand and Shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon. If the charge fails, for whatever reason, we assume that the chargers closed to within the weapon's maximum range before being driven off." |
|
|
|
Post by avatarofbugman on Jun 16, 2017 1:27:23 GMT
I'm going to upgrade my 10 man thunderer units to each have a champ with pistols. Puts the rest at short range.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2017 16:21:31 GMT
I'm going to upgrade my 10 man thunderer units to each have a champ with pistols. Puts the rest at short range. I'm doing the same thing with mine! |
|
