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Post by Anton on Aug 10, 2015 11:08:58 GMT
Let's compare them to some shooty big guys. I'd say Ogre Leadbelchers are the best example because they are tried and tested over several years and I don't think they are unfair in any way. They cost only 43 points each and still shoot better than the Judicators thanks to being able to move and shoot without penalty and not suffering any penalty for multiple shots, while Judicators do. They may have shorter range but their move is better. On the other hand, Leadbelchers are much more vulnerable to damage with only light armour compared to Sigmarite, and only WS3 compared to WS5. At 65 points for a Judicator, that means you get 1.5 Leadbelcher for every Judicator. Factoring in better Leadership this looks like a fair deal, but I would definitely not increase the cost of Judicators.
At the more extreme end you could compare to Stormfiends with Ratling Cannons that put out 3D6 S5 AP hits with no penalties for range or multiple shots at 85 points. And they skirmish. Then again most missile troops look like crap compared to Stormfiends.
On a different note, the weapon options on the Judicators don't look balanced. The Crossbow is way too weak compared to the bow and it costs extra. Short range and Move or Fire is not a great combination. They will get few shots (high points cost) and rarely hit on better than 5+ (range and multiple shot). It's a 350 points unit that will only ever do 2-3 wounds -- unless the target has good armour, in which case 1 wound is really the best you can hope for.
Actually the more I think on it I think this army suffers from too high points costs. Everything is great but the points just add up too fast. The Liberators especially need to have a cost that will allow you to take at least one solid unit of 10 in a standard 2000-2500 points game and not completely break the bank. Maybe I'm wrong and some clever player will come up with a list that can compete but I don't see how.
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Post by KevinC on Aug 10, 2015 12:09:43 GMT
Great analysis Anton!
When I was pricing them, I was worried about having them cost too much. At the same time, as Dan brought up, I did not want Judicators to be a better deal than Liberators. I do think the 65-70 point mark is about right.
One of the downsides of the Stormcast Eternals is that they are a powerful elite army, expensive in points value, which means the army will not be huge. One reason I added some fanatical human followers to put in some cheaper troops.
we can continue to see how the crossbows perform...
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Post by KevinC on Aug 10, 2015 12:10:25 GMT
Has anyone playtested this army list yet??
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Aug 12, 2015 21:08:00 GMT
I just played against stormcasts.
Stormcast army:
Lord on drac with killing blow halberd
Relictor
6 liberators with prime and a standard
5 liberators
3 flyers
3 retributors
4 warrior priests
Chaos army:
Throgg
Khorne Bsb on demonic mount
9 trolls
4 trolls
8 khorne ogres
Chimera
2 small hound units
Shaggoth with great weapon
Lv 2 fire wizard
Khorne giant
Chaos won but suffered heavy casualties. They tabled the Sigmarines in the bottom of the 5th turn but only had their 3 characters and maybe 6 trolls left. 2 of the characters were wounded.
Liberators are hard to shift. Stubborn with a Bsb and general nearby is like unbreakable. Even in the smaller units they stay for a long time. No Stormcast troops ran away in the battle, all died on their feet facing the enemy. The warrior priests met a grisly end against the shaggoth but that's to be expected. Thunderstomp isn't their friend. Even with all of the stomps I had, the Stormcast troops took a licking and kept on ticking. The Lord on drac was great but I feel like an additional wound or 2 would help him. Throgg battered him with a tree trunk for the battle's last kill. The flying hammer guys got flanked by the chimera but were part of a combo charge (with their lord) that destroyed the khorne ogres.
Other feedback:
Given that the army is very mystical, it would be nice to see them have more of a presence in the magic phase. My opponent healed his troops twice with the relictor but maybe some heavens magic could help with play and theme. I'd consider making the characters all level one casters, similar to the vampires. I also think that the army would be fun if we had some of the shooty elements.
All told the game was entertaining and the army is very straightforward. It was fun to see a force made entirely of large infantry...definitely a new and interesting experience.
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Post by dannytee on Aug 13, 2015 0:43:37 GMT
Thanks for the run down on the battle. It's cool that you have a roughly 2,000 point force right out of the starter box.
One thing I just noticed about the army list is that I do not see where the characters have access to magic items out of the main rule book. Was this intentional Kevin? I guess this does make sense since they have their own special armor and weapons. But if they do in fact not have access to magic items from the main rule book maybe their list could include some enchanted and arcane items that the characters could buy.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Aug 13, 2015 1:13:11 GMT
I wouldn't want them to have access to the brb items since they are "not from this world".
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Post by KevinC on Aug 13, 2015 2:07:13 GMT
Thanks for the report Jerkface.
Dannytee, I don't want the Eternals to have access to magic items. Their equipment are basically magic items, I am even considering writing in the equipment rules that everything follows the rules of magic items.
Jerkface, any thoughts about the Warrior Priest unit in battle?
When you are saying that the Eternals are hard to shift...is that good or bad? Or merely an observation?
Did you have any units deploy with the Riders of the Storm special rule?
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Aug 13, 2015 2:13:51 GMT
Too soon to comment on the priests, they had a tough matchup against a shaggoth. No, I forgot about deep striking, er, riders on the storm. All weapons should be magical for fluff. Hard to shift was good, in my opinion. For their points cost and low model count they should be in the fight until the death.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Aug 13, 2015 12:37:55 GMT
What advantage would all of their weapons being magical give, and would that become too much of an advantage? Only Daemons have that rule, and a lot of those attacks are strength 3, maybe strength 4.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Aug 13, 2015 13:08:27 GMT
I figured because they are the mirror image of demons, just armored.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Aug 13, 2015 14:03:50 GMT
I get it, but the daemons have a hard time with lack of armor and no real magic item allowance. The magical attacks aids them as a result.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Aug 13, 2015 14:14:41 GMT
The Storm hosts have many heroes with access to magic weapond.
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Post by Anton on Aug 13, 2015 14:16:17 GMT
Lots of magical attacks is good if you play against Ethereals. Army wide magical attacks is a severe disadvantage if you play against a Banner of the World Dragon bunker.
Against pretty much everything else it doesn't matter if your attacks are magical or not.
But I agree with Rick, they should all have magical attacks since they are 'good' daemons.
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Post by mottdon on Aug 13, 2015 18:18:47 GMT
I agree with Anton. Having that many magical attacks could work against them as much as it does for them, if not more.
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Post by KevinC on Aug 13, 2015 20:55:22 GMT
Guys, FYI, the Sigmar's Justice special rule grants them magical attacks.
I was going to write that all their equipment count as magic items, that would mean spells and items that negate magic items would work against Stromcast Eternal equipment. Thoughts?
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