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Post by KevinC on Jul 23, 2017 15:54:40 GMT
Whoops my apologies I think with the multiple discussions on magic I lost track of which one I was in! ---------Well, I am a "weird" player, I suppose!
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Post by Horace on Jul 24, 2017 13:30:47 GMT
Whoops my apologies I think with the multiple discussions on magic I lost track of which one I was in! ---------Well, I am a "weird" player, I suppose! I must say I agree with KevinC but that is probably because I am a bit of a weird player too I have never seen level 4s as compulsory in 8th, especially at lower points. Maybe in 5th edition, but since the model count has got higher and with miscasts, I have struggled to really get proper value from my wizards on such a consistent basis that I would not leave home without a level 4.
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Post by KevinC on Jul 24, 2017 16:02:17 GMT
---------Well, I am a "weird" player, I suppose! I must say I agree with KevinC but that is probably because I am a bit of a weird player too I have never seen level 4s as compulsory in 8th, especially at lower points. Maybe in 5th edition, but since the model count has got higher and with miscasts, I have struggled to really get proper value from my wizards on such a consistent basis that I would not leave home without a level 4. ----------I'm currently involved in a 6,000-point campaign (my forces are divided between 3 banners/armies) since 2012, and for my wizards I only have a few level 2s and a single level 3 wizard (who is currently dead). I'm been doing just fine without a level 4 (and I'm technically winning the whole campaign, I think).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2017 16:39:48 GMT
I prefer level 4's for a couple reasons:
Spell selection - Nothings worse than having a 12 dice magic phase but only having two spells to cast. Having a lot of spells also allows you to be more strategic in the magic phase trying to keep your opponent guessing what you want to go off and what's just "filler". I'm NOT a "throw 6-dice and hope for irresistible" kind of guy, that approach to magic makes me cringe actually; I'd rather use those extra dice to tease out other useful spells and force my opponent to make a hard choice. There are times though that I will if that spell absolutely HAS to go off (if I'll lose if I don't) or if it's the only way to make averages on a spell (boosted transformation, dreaded thirteenth immediately come to mind)
Cost - I can see spamming low level wizards when you're goblins or humans where the wizards are cheap, but from a WoC perspective I can only ever squeeze two low level wizards into a list before I break the bank on characters.
Stats - again, coming from a WoC perspective, my wizards are going to be fighting, I place them in combat blocks as I don't take bunkers so oftentimes that third wound is critical.
+4 to dispel/cast - I really like this. Often this can mean the difference between casting two-three spells in a single phase or casting three-four spells in a single phase. That one extra spell that you can often squeeze out because of your bonus can make a huge difference when you're in combat. When dispelling it can often be the difference between successfully and not successfully dispelling a spell.
That said, I've been experimenting with a lvl2 having a chaos familliar (so, 3 spells) and have been enjoying it. I've been going up against lvl2's myself so I haven't had a hard time of it yet, we'll see how I feel after I have that kind of a magic mismatch.
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Post by mottdon on Jul 24, 2017 17:00:01 GMT
I suppose what it really comes down to is the army you're running. O&G for instance, it's a great plan of attack to spam cheap Goblin casters and have them try to "steal" their opponent's dice. It also won't hurt as much if they get killed.
But for many other armies, like WoC or Lizardmen Slanns, investing that many points is a huge (and often pivotal) segment of the army build so you want them to be as effective as possible. (Slanns are automatically Lv4s but even naked, they're 300 points so...)
Personally, I usually run a Lv4 in my games, but I almost always play 2500 pt games. Anything less than 2000, I'll just run 1-2 Lv2s. I think the last 1500 point game I played was with my Empire army and I ran a Lv2 of Fire on a Barded Steed and put him in a unit of 5 Knights behind 2 units of 2 Pistoliers. The Pistoliers acted as screens, softening up targets and redirecting them where needed. The Wizard was casting Fireballs to soften up targets and them allowing shooting to finish them off and giving Flaming Cloaks to units that were in threat of seeing close combat. The steed provided some armor and lots of movement. That worked really well against my High Elf opponent and won me the game!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2017 17:19:37 GMT
Or Skaven! That grey seer is a lvl4 and his LD is required to make a skaven army work. I'd take one in 2000 points, but I'm unsure about 1500, I'd probably go the engineer route then and have a chieftan/warlord be the general.
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Post by KevinC on Jul 24, 2017 19:42:55 GMT
I agree with all the pros of a Level 4 wizard....except when I have a low Winds of Magic dice roll in my turn.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2017 19:49:08 GMT
Agreed! Nothing worse than having 2-3 dice in a magic phase!
A MAJOR downside of a lvl4 though is that if you fail to cast (or the wizard dies) then you lose access to any further spells that phase. Adopting a multiple low level approach mitigates this.
Also you're limited to what arcane items you can have if there's only one or two wizards in the list. Bringing 4-5 low level wizards to a game means you can play around with all those fun arcane items without worrying about the obligatory scroll caddy and (for WoC) the chaos familiar.
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Post by frozenfood on Jul 25, 2017 5:28:13 GMT
4-5 ? Very cool but if he had a lvl4, do any of your spells get through? My main worry is that he had a +4 on his dispel attempts. So a lvl1 has to throw at least three more...or are you tempting him to one dice stuff and get a headache? That might work...
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Post by mottdon on Jul 25, 2017 13:21:37 GMT
Either that, or he simply 6-dices everything and hopes to just get a miscast every phase. With that many casters, who cares if you lose a couple? I think the main difference would be on magic defense. It would just be harder to stop spells from going off. But I suppose that's where other "tricky" items come in handy like a Feedback Scroll.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 16:16:03 GMT
4-5 ? Very cool but if he had a lvl4, do any of your spells get through? My main worry is that he had a +4 on his dispel attempts. So a lvl1 has to throw at least three more...or are you tempting him to one dice stuff and get a headache? That might work... You can easily burn up your opponents dispel dice throwing 1-die at a spell. Remember, on a dispel attempt a 1 or a 2 is an automatic fail (just like casting). After a failed dispel attempt he's then a level 0 for dispel purposes. Most people will throw 2-dice at a dispel attempt to avoid this. He'll quickly be out of dice if he's throwing 2 to counter your 1.
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Post by knoffles on Jul 25, 2017 17:06:09 GMT
After running dwarves as my main army for so long when I play another army I almost always take a lvl 4 and level 2 but that's mainly because I've missed out on an entire segment of the game for a while. I have found that having the banner of valaya to get +4 to dispel with the dwarves really helps at our club, if only because most opponents take a lvl 4.
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Post by dannytee on Jul 29, 2017 15:32:19 GMT
Yes that's true. It also encourages someone playing a list against someone with nuke spell to try and do multiple medium sized units rather then building a single 'deathstar' unit that has all their characters etc. It's actually one of the more elegant bits of game balancing built into 8th's rules IMO. Still not perfect for a variety of reasons but it's a nice piece of the rules set. Yes, I strongly agree with this. The nuke spells really are necessary. It keeps deathstars/hordes in line. If you don't want your deathstar/horde to lose half of its strength to one spell an option is to not take that deathstar/horde and instead split your list into smaller units where these spells will take out less models/points.
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Post by dannytee on Jul 29, 2017 15:41:58 GMT
(and I'm technically winning the whole campaign, I think). TheREALricksalamoneI can verify, yes, yes you are winning the whole campaign currently.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Jul 29, 2017 16:07:33 GMT
Just one man's opinion: I like 3 or 4 Level 1 casters with the signature spell. It's the most "reliable" way to do magic, so to speak.
My Tomb Kings army requires IMHO a Level 4 so he can get off multiple buff spells in one super mega awesome magic phase. Sadly, that super magic phase of Level 4 + Casket + Heirotitan happens like 0.9 times per game. Yeah - not even once a game. But when it happens - - - - HOME RUN. But that actually rarely decides the game. It's a WIN MORE kind of thing, really.
My Empire army has many times taken QTY 3 Level 1 Beasts. They support a big block of 15 Knights and 2 squads of Demigryphs. Wildform is so good with those targets! Buff, buff, buff. Small ball. Base hits. But it wins KEY close combats.
My Chaos Warriors army has many times taken QTY 2 Level 1 Fire. Fireball is a truly good "Signature" spell because you can choose the big version and 5 dice it. Or, you can cast small little 2 dice versions and snipe chaff. So good, tactically.
TL; DR When you know the signature spell, you can build the rest of your army around it.
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