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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 31, 2017 20:09:44 GMT
Correct. BRB p. 88: "If for some reason a model has more than one missile weapon, he is allowed to choose which one to fire during the Shooting phase." The weapons you choose for your models to be used will determine the both the firing unit's maximum range, and the maximum range of its shortest-ranged weapon for that particular round of shooting.
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Post by frozenfood on Aug 31, 2017 20:39:15 GMT
I have never, ever had a character with more than one shooting weapon. Seems like a waste of points.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 31, 2017 21:05:27 GMT
For me it a moot point, as Empire characters or units do not have the option.
While we are at it, I would like to point out that in S&S, the Sniper rule does not work (already since 2011). BRB p. 75 (updated): "Unless making a Stand and Shoot charge reaction, a model making a Sniper shot can shoot at a different target from the one chosen by his unit."
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Post by mottdon on Aug 31, 2017 21:32:04 GMT
I have never, ever had a character with more than one shooting weapon. Seems like a waste of points. In this case, it wouldn't be the character with the ranged weapon option. The Dwarf Rangers take Crossbows as well as Throwing Axes. In the scenario I cited, the Thane would've just had a Pistol. It is true though that it's just not that common of an occurrence.
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Post by vintageof79 on Sept 1, 2017 10:22:23 GMT
I wanted to reply sooner, but I have had no time in the past couple of days.
Firstly, fvonsigmaren, I concede to your points. It has been an interesting thought process in reflection. For me the situation creates two firing points - one immediately in the long range of the first weapon and then one for the shorter range Weapon. This does not seem logical. But, the rules say nothing of creating two firing points, they merely tell us how to resolve the Stand and Shoot reaction. My viewpoint is irrelevant, although as discussed earlier in this thread I am far from the only one inserting their own conditions. Interestingly as I was rocking my youngest back to sleep the other morning, I was able to look at many historical Stand and Shoot discussions. So far there has not been one that has picked up or discussed this point, which leaves one of two options: GW did not faq it as it the issue has not been brought up; Games Workshop may have deliberately left the rule as it is. In addition, Warhammer 8.1 and 8.5 have not changed this rule.
Finally just to address your point of leaving out the example, that was deliberate. Semicolon rules go a little deeper that those expressed on that page. You can have two independent clauses linked by a semicolon that could be sentences in their own right, which is what I was trying to suggest. However, at the same time I was browsing the forums above, I also remembered (and then checked to make sure, which I should have done the first time around) that the semicolon represented, with lack of any other transitional phrase etc., a coordinating conjunction (for, and, nor, but, or, yet, so). In place of the semicolon above you would put 'or'. In place of the dash (assuming it was replaced by a semicolon) the only word that could logically fit would be 'and'.
Anyway, lessons learnt.
Sorry to bore you all grammatically!
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Post by vintageof79 on Sept 1, 2017 10:36:25 GMT
It is amazing that we are only discussing this now, 7 years after the release of the game.
Edit: 😧 ⬇ Ahh, I need to clarify again, he will never take me seriously now! 😦
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 1, 2017 10:42:27 GMT
Of course, this website did not exist 7 years ago.
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Post by frozenfood on Sept 1, 2017 10:58:21 GMT
A void in my life has been filled
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Post by strutsagget on Sept 1, 2017 14:07:07 GMT
A void in my life has been filled I still have room for some more pointy ears in my void.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 1, 2017 14:34:53 GMT
You mean...aural sex?
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Post by strutsagget on Sept 1, 2017 17:28:04 GMT
Lol
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Post by knoffles on Oct 4, 2018 18:11:50 GMT
Rather than derail livewaaa’s army thread I thought I’d post something here. Apologies if it’s already been covered in the epic thread (I couldn’t find it).
A unit can only stand and shoot if the charging unit starts outside of their weapons maximum range. (Or words to that effect - sry I’m on a train atm)
Ignoring the RAI arguements, am I correct in thinking that dwarf Xbows and handguns both having the dwarf crafted rule (no -1 to s&s reactions) is completely pointless as they can’t ever be used to stand and shoot due to their range?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 4, 2018 21:14:46 GMT
No, of course they can S&S. This is simply about the shooting modifiers you may or may not have to add. In the case of Dwarf-crafted weapons, you never add the -1 modifier for S&S, but you do add all other negative modifiers that are applicable. To quote myself here: Perhaps it is an appropriate moment to detail the whole procedure: 1. Unit A declares a charge against unit B 2. Unit B declares its reaction: S&S 3. This reaction is resolved immediately, following the normal rules of shooting and adding a negative modifier of -1 for S&S. It is important to note that the charging unit that has not moved yet from its starting position, and you apply the normal rules for shooting from that position: - LoS and frontal arc for each model are determined from that position. - If the target panics, then it will move from that position. - Cover is determined from that position. For instance, other units in between the shooters and the chargers at that position will provide hard cover, even though they may be gone, when the chargers actually move. The difference with normal shooting attacks is that models can even shoot when the target is not in range – it is now assumed to be in range (BRB p.39). If the charger at that position is further away than half the weapon's maximum range, that weapon will suffer a -1 shooting modifier for long range (in addition to all other modifiers). However, against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range, shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon (what gregwarhamster was referring to). 4. After resolving the shooting and any potential Panic attacks, UNIT B is treated as having declared a hold reaction.
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Post by knoffles on Oct 5, 2018 5:15:26 GMT
Cheers and ignore me. I started to confuse the hell out of myself after reading the thread!
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Post by knoffles on Oct 5, 2018 7:09:48 GMT
Actually i'm still confused around the thunderers and pistol example so just trying to get this clear in my own mind.
I have a unit of 10 thunderers (in 2 ranks of 5). In the first rank is a champion with a brace of pistols.
example: An enemy unit of cavalry (with a move of 8") declares a charge from 13" away (and this is the only unit charging).
The Dwarves can S&S as the enemy is over 8" away (the enemy units movement).
The 9 Dwarves with handguns can then make the S&S reaction with the following initial modifications
-1 stand and shoot -1 for long range
(so they would be hitting on a 6+)
The dwarf handguns, dwarf crafted rule remove the stand and shoot modification leaving:
-1 for long range
(so they would be hitting on a 5+).
The bit I'm struggling with is the pistols.
Am I right in thinking the interpretation, due to the way it is written (pg17 of the BRB), is that the short range of the pistol removing the -1 long range modifier in this example (the shooting unit's shortest ranged weapon), only comes into play if the charging unit starts outside of the 24" range of the thunderers (the firing unit's maximum range).Â
In any other S&S instance, the shooting is considered to occur once the charging unit enters the firing unit's maximum weapons range (pg 38 of the BRB). So in this example, the unit is already in range, so the shooting occurs at the 13" range.
The issue (as such) is with the rule written on pg 17 of the BRB (final paragraph of the first column) . The first part is clearly making the point that the unit receiving the charge, can still stand and shoot if the charging unit is outside of the missiles range. I don't think there is any disagreement there. The second part is saying that the shooting takes place just within the maximum range of the unit's shortest ranged weapon. Again that is clear, it just states at what distance the shooting will occur.
The issue seems to be down to the use of the rules writer saying: 'the shortest ranged weapon' in just this context. This has then been applied to any stand and shoot reaction by a lot of players (including myself).
Edit: I also thought after the 7 pages it might be good to have a summary.
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