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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Nov 18, 2017 20:59:51 GMT
Horace Yes, I know you do. Just don't want it to look like Nightbringer interpretation is THE logic. All I am saying and adding to the table is A LOT of people not only comp people don't follow that way of thinking of the rules. I don't know who is correct, but there is no CLEAR way of knowing unless GW would add it to the rules. Obviously, it can be interpreted both ways and obviously it both follows own logic. The way THE FvonSigmaringen stated earlier is for me way clearer and makes less confusing situations for a lot of units. NIGHTBRINGER , I do not mean to offend you and if I did I apologize. All I am saying is that there is multiple ways of interpreting this. But we have a lot of WoC players playing right now in Da Boyz GT how do you run pivots in none war machine units there? @ryryak , gjnoronh , KevinC That's fair enough. GW's rules are most definitely not ironclad and in addition even with the carefullest attention a large rule set such as WFB will always have a few holes here and there. Issues will always pop up and sometimes people will disagree on those troublesome items. In this case, I don't think any of us will be able to reach a resolution that satisfies all of us. Some will side with one interpretation and some will side with the other. Luckily, most of us belong to different gaming groups anyways, so it is ultimately a moot point. With nothing at stake, this pretty much becomes nothing more than a fun little theoretical debate. At least this isn't as bad as the old Predatory Fighter debate for my Lizardmen!
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Post by grandmasterwang on Nov 19, 2017 17:41:34 GMT
Well, this has been an interesting read.
I personally allow the pivot for the Hellcannon but not for the chariot cannons. If chariot cannons are allowed a free pivot it opens up a lot of shenanigans.
I don't have the book in front of me but how are people playing the Ogre Kingdoms Thundertusk? That's a monster with a Stonethower. I see it as very different from the Hellcannon though which despite being 'alive' seems much more like a standard war machine. Things like Aracknarock spiders can take stone thrower options, would this all of a sudden allow a free shooting phase pivot for the monster? Note, don't have any books with me to check the wordings.
Steam Tank and Iron Daemon it seems clearly do not allow the pivot per the straight ahead rules.
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Post by Naitsabes on Nov 19, 2017 18:01:51 GMT
Well, this has been an interesting read. I personally allow the pivot for the Hellcannon but not for the chariot cannons. If chariot cannons are allowed a free pivot it opens up a lot of shenanigans. Steam Tank and Iron Daemon it seems clearly do not allow the pivot per the straight ahead rules. This is what we do to. I think it is also a matter of practicality. The hell cannon often just sits around in the movement phase and it is easy to forget to point it the right way. The chariot cannons on the other hand move about and at that point you could be expected to have them point the right way for the shooting phase (and yes, this could mean a 180 degree turn, all chariots and monsters are surprisingly nimble). Random movers are a different beast. That you can't have them move one way and then point-and-shoot in the other is a key drawback of that kind of movement.
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Post by Horace on Nov 19, 2017 18:12:27 GMT
Well, this has been an interesting read. I personally allow the pivot for the Hellcannon but not for the chariot cannons. If chariot cannons are allowed a free pivot it opens up a lot of shenanigans. I don't have the book in front of me but how are people playing the Ogre Kingdoms Thundertusk? That's a monster with a Stonethower. I see it as very different from the Hellcannon though which despite being 'alive' seems much more like a standard war machine. Things like Aracknarock spiders can take stone thrower options, would this all of a sudden allow a free shooting phase pivot for the monster? Note, don't have any books with me to check the wordings. Steam Tank and Iron Daemon it seems clearly do not allow the pivot per the straight ahead rules. Thinking more about this, aren't single models allowed free pivots anyway?
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Post by Horace on Nov 19, 2017 18:17:52 GMT
here are the arachnarok and lone model rules, although this would be movement not shooting phase..
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Post by grandmasterwang on Nov 19, 2017 18:42:04 GMT
here are the arachnarok and lone model rules, although this would be movement not shooting phase.. Yeah, which is what I mean by allowing things like Ironblasters and Aracknarock spiders a 'second' free pivot in the shooting phase isn't something I agree with. I mean I like deception and fake outs in Warhammer but not in this way. It also affects the magic phase which comes before shooting. If you cast a debuff spell say on a unit which doesn't seem to be targeted by that much then it's more likely to be left to cast. Ie, hypothetically say a Thundertusk gets a free shooting phase pivot due to firing like a stone thrower (Thundertusk can fire after moving normally) and moves up then pivots to its right at the end of its movement lining up a horde which is now in front of it, you would assume it will fire at this horde or something in its front arc and this will affect your dispel priority. If, the Thundertusk then during the shooting phase does a 180 degree so it's now facing the opposite direction it was at the end of its movement phase under the guise of changing its firing arc with the free shooting phase 'pivot' I don't agree with that. (substitute Thundertusk for Ironblaster or whatever) This is further compounded in larger games, of which I quite enjoy. I could forsee a situation where in a 5000 point battle where in the shooting phase, 5 chariot/monster Warmachines all pivot and change their facings (as they will certainly have viable shooting targets) to throw off charge angles etc etc and other shenanigans post magic phase. We don't play like this but in a Waac environment allowing the free pivot opens up more abuse and makes the completely broken 135 point Skull Cannon even more broken in comparison to standard cannon options.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Nov 19, 2017 18:49:48 GMT
Basically, allowing the free pivot for things like Chariot cannons rewards bad play as they can 'fix' any dirctional error or misjudgements they made during their movement phase in their shooting phase. For all these monsters/chariots featuring or carrying war machines I feel they should have to line up their shooting target in the movement phase just like every other figurine of their unit type..... not get a second chance in the movement phase like a special snowflake. Being a moving Warmachine is benefit enough.
Just my 2c.
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Bluke
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Post by Bluke on Nov 19, 2017 20:55:06 GMT
I've always played with the free pivot, like a stone throwner. However it seldom needs to pivot because it has a huge base and so its field of vision is very large. Although if it targets flying monsters or fast cav that's different. The more confusing aspect of the rules is the Chaos Dwarf Handlers. They get removed on a 5 or 6 after every wound which in effect gives it some extra wounds and an extra defence against cannon balls. The two questions I've been more confused about are a.) do the chaos dwarves fight in combat? and b.) if it gets hit by a stone thrower, do both handlers and monster get hit?
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Post by strutsagget on Nov 19, 2017 21:57:58 GMT
So after reading more new inputs, it seems: A lot of people don't like moving and then pivoting as it opens up for a bad game experience, some just allow it on everything except Steam Tank, some allows it on Hellcanon as it can not shenanigan as it has Move or Fire rule. @bluke Bluke“MONSTER AND HANDLERS Some armies drive colossal beasts to battle, beastmasters hurrying at the monster’s heels as they goad it into the foe. The handlers aren’t really a combat unit per se, so we ignore them for most gaming purposes, treating the monster itself as the extent of the unit. When the monster suffers an unsaved wound, roll a D6. On a roll of 1-4 the monster suffers the wound as normal, but on a roll of 5-6 a handler model is removed instead. Once all the handlers have been removed, the monster must take a Monster Reaction test just like a ridden monster that loses its rider. In close combat, the handlers can direct their attacks against any enemy in base contact with their monster. The handlers are otherwise assumed to have their hands too full controlling the monster to carry out any actions like shooting, or casting spells, etc. In addition the handlers cannot be charged, attacked or otherwise affected separately from their monster – if they are found to be blocking movement or line of sight, the controlling player simply alters their position, just as you would for any other battlefield marker or counter. If[…]” Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “WARHAMMER RULEBOOK.” iBooks. So a) Yes b) No is my interpretation 😊
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 17:16:06 GMT
I've always played with the free pivot, like a stone throwner. However it seldom needs to pivot because it has a huge base and so its field of vision is very large. Although if it targets flying monsters or fast cav that's different. The more confusing aspect of the rules is the Chaos Dwarf Handlers. They get removed on a 5 or 6 after every wound which in effect gives it some extra wounds and an extra defence against cannon balls. The two questions I've been more confused about are a.) do the chaos dwarves fight in combat? and b.) if it gets hit by a stone thrower, do both handlers and monster get hit? This is answered in the monsters and handlers section of the rulebook actually pg 73: "In close combat, the handlers can direct their attacks against any enemy in base contact with their monster. The handlers are otherwise assumed to have their hands full controlling the monster to carry out any other action....In addition the handlers cannot be charged, attacked or otherwise affected separately from their monster..." so to answer your questions: a) yes they fight in close combat b) they're ignored for everything else, meaning they can't be hit by things like stone throwers and cannons. You randomize the SINGLE hit that the Hellcannon takes from the stone thrower/cannon against either the monster or the crew. EDIT: What strutsagget said
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 17:32:04 GMT
here are the arachnarok and lone model rules, although this would be movement not shooting phase.. Yeah, which is what I mean by allowing things like Ironblasters and Aracknarock spiders a 'second' free pivot in the shooting phase isn't something I agree with. I mean I like deception and fake outs in Warhammer but not in this way. It also affects the magic phase which comes before shooting. If you cast a debuff spell say on a unit which doesn't seem to be targeted by that much then it's more likely to be left to cast. Ie, hypothetically say a Thundertusk gets a free shooting phase pivot due to firing like a stone thrower (Thundertusk can fire after moving normally) and moves up then pivots to its right at the end of its movement lining up a horde which is now in front of it, you would assume it will fire at this horde or something in its front arc and this will affect your dispel priority. If, the Thundertusk then during the shooting phase does a 180 degree so it's now facing the opposite direction it was at the end of its movement phase under the guise of changing its firing arc with the free shooting phase 'pivot' I don't agree with that. (substitute Thundertusk for Ironblaster or whatever) This is further compounded in larger games, of which I quite enjoy. I could forsee a situation where in a 5000 point battle where in the shooting phase, 5 chariot/monster Warmachines all pivot and change their facings (as they will certainly have viable shooting targets) to throw off charge angles etc etc and other shenanigans post magic phase. We don't play like this but in a Waac environment allowing the free pivot opens up more abuse and makes the completely broken 135 point Skull Cannon even more broken in comparison to standard cannon options. If we're going to argue that if hellcannons/ironblasters/skullcannons can pick and choose what part of the warmachine rules they follow then I'm going to argue that because they're NOT labeled as warmachines then the ironcurse icon and anything else that triggers against warmachines doesn't work against these units. I think it makes much more sense to just follow ALL the rules for a warmachine (including treating it as an attack from a warmachine) if it states that the weapon fires just as if it were one. I've always allowed the pivot for weapons that fire as if they were warmachines of a given type; because that's what warmachines of ANY given type can do.
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Post by strutsagget on Nov 20, 2017 17:44:00 GMT
@ryryak that's a valid opinion too. And if I followed my thoughts then I would not trigger iron curse icon either I just wish GW would have sorted this out in an FAQ
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Nov 20, 2017 19:24:16 GMT
@ryryak that's a valid opinion too. And if I followed my thoughts then I would not trigger iron curse icon either That is reasonable. In regards to the ironcurse icon, I think there are two fair ways to play it: - If you do not permit the hellcannon/skullcannon/etc. to pivot, then the iron curse icon is not triggered
- If you do permit the hellcannon/skullcannon/etc. to pivot, then the iron curse icon is triggered (this is the way I play it)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 20:20:19 GMT
#2 is the way I play it as well.
I only brought up the ironcurse as a way to show that there are other objects in the game that interact with a "warmachine". By picking and choosing what part of the warmachine rules you follow with regards to these units then you may inadvertently affect those things as well.
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Post by mottdon on Nov 21, 2017 3:59:09 GMT
I can't say that in my 10+ years of playing, that I've ever encountered something like with the Thundertusk example. The only time I can really see this coming into play is if you line up a shot in the movement phase, then during magic, something happens and the lined up target runs or is simply killed outright, leaving nothing for the Thundertusk to shoot at. Yeah, I'd want to be able to still use that expensive model I bought too.
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